TargetTalk

Hi, in my search for answers I have just come across your forum - perhaps someone has an answer.

let me introduce myself first - name is Gunter, live in the SE of England (Kent), have been shooting all my life (target and everything else)
- Life Member NRA (USA) 1974.
Getting old now (72) and can only usefully shoot from a rest with a scope now.
So I shoot .22 Benchrest 50m (really only semi-Benchrest, as one can only use a front-rest)
and doing not too bad with an old Anschutz Super Match I bought about 2 years ago!

Now here comes the point:
it's definitely a 14xx action with the wing safety
the (heavy match barrel is marked 65 for 1965 at the proof mark
But - the serial number of the action is 488xxx (NO 'X' after the s/n)
according to what I've found so far the s/n for 1965 should be somewhere in the region of
50-60.000?

Has someone in the past changed the barrel for a new old-stock barrel?

the s/n of the action seems to be very high for a 1410?
question after question - hehe

The bolt is correct and marked to the action with last 3 numbers
Headspace is correct.
Bolt has 2 extractors (one removed) - barrel can only accommodate one extractor,
which I believe is correct for the age of the barrel.

Not really important but it bugs me - hehe

Have changed the firing pin/spring to the later & lighter(1813?) 2-part f/p and a 5039 Int'l Set Trigger
at about 2oz

got all the bits & trigger in Germany on an auction site (it helps if one speaks the lingo!)
about 8 months ago someone had a set of parts there - the 5039 trigger
plus all the bits that come off a bolt incl. the 2-part f/p

managed to buy it.

I believe the trigger and firing pin came off the same gun, as everything works just fine
without having had to fiddle with it!


This thing shoots well!
Have just shot the high score in the club champ. with 591 ex 600 and the Kent BR champ
should end up around 985 ex 1000 (one match card to go!) -
excuse the boasting, but I am VERY pleased hehe.

Edit - if I find out how to post a pic, I can put some up

Thanks for any info

Best regards from Kent
Gunter

Gunter,

Regarding the serial number, 48,8xx isn't very far from 50,000. It's possible the original barrel was replaced, with a very slightly newer one. Perhaps the original was faulty, or damaged soon after purchase, and went back to the factory. However, it may simply be the original, and the serial number just crept into 1965.

It's odd the bolt has two claws, but the barrel only one relief slot. But, remember that Anschutz fit the barrel first. They then fit a bolt, setting the headspace with the handle. It's not inconceivable that they ran out of single claw bolts before compatible barrels.

Fitting an 1800 FP and spring is more puzzling. I'm surprised you got the to work, as Anschutz changed the sear geometry for the 1800, moving the sear about 2mm forwards; normally it takes quite a bit of fettling to get a 1400 trigger to meet an 1800 FP enough to cock. I'd also doubt whether the bayonet-fit end cap also would properly compress the smaller rear spring, which provides quite a bit of the strike energy, as it was meant to be used with a screw-fit cap. The geometry of the cam in the bolt handle also changed.

Anschutz did change the 1400 FP around 1965, making the cocking indicator a separate piece. Did you mean this, or perhaps a 1600? These have the same sear geometry as a 1400.

Hi Tim,
the s/n is 488,xxx !

re firing pin: the sear bit on the f/p is stepped back approx 2mm!
I think I see now whats happened there - someone has ground the thing back!
It fits! it breaks cleanly! - must have been someone who knew what they were doing - perhaps a gunsmith?!
I'm not sure when they changed to 2-part firing pins - but it all fits and works with the end cap that came with all the bits (the original end cap would not accept the rear indicator with spring pin as the hole too small

How can I put up a pic? might be easier if I can show details.

rgds
Gunter

Just found the file attachment thingy - sorry, getting old - takes me a while to get to grip with things
will take a few pics later and post them = might take until tmrw morning
Gunter

Gunter wrote:......live in the SE of England (Kent)....

Can I suggest that you put that in your profile?

Gunter,

Hmmm, a high 400,000 range SN would be odd. Anschutz numbered Match 54 target rifles sequentially from the 1950s to the 2000s, when they added an extra digit. I think SNs were in the high 300,000s when they changed. Although the basic receiver dimensions didn't change, a 1913 receiver is visually distinct from a 1413. Since you mention a wing safety that gives us a manufacturing date of 1977 at the very latest. So the SN should be ca 150,000 tops (I forget exactly where the 1600s started, but it's thereabouts). Are you sure it's 4xx,xxx?

Two part firing pins were introduced in the 1960s, some time around 1966.The separate indicator pin was noticeably fatter than the "spike" integral to the older pins. 1600 and 18/1900 indicator pins are longer and slimmer, and have much stiffer springs; 18/1900 small springs are stiffer than 1600 springs, inverse to the strength of the main spring.

As for the firing pin itself, all 1800/1900 firing pins have a notch at the front of the bent, so it's unlikely to be a gunsmith modification to fit a 5039 trigger. The 5018 trigger fitted to 1800 and 1900 Match 54s has a sear that matches the notch. 1400 and 1600 FPs have a square edge, and 14/1600 trigger sears are shaped accordingly. Normally an 1800 pin won't reach a 1400 sear to cock. You'd have to perform some jiggery-pokery to slide a 1400 trigger further back so it engages the 1800 pin. I'd wonder why anyone went to that much trouble though, as 1400 pins were readily available until only a few years ago.

The only trigger I've found that works with any Match 54 is the old Kelly, but the retaining bolts pass through open-ended slots (not holes) so it can move much further than a factory Anschutz trigger. Since John Kelly made these in small quantities by himself, not needing two designs was an advantage.

Yes, pictures would certainly help, preferably of the action out of the stock.

Tim,
thanks so far!
have taken some pics in the dark - would have been better in daylight, but will suffice, I trust...
Also, my Springer Spaniel decided to get in the way when she saw me getting a gun out of the safe!
If you know Springers, you know what I mean! They can seriously get in the way - very excitable - hehe.

Anyway, no, I don't think I'm going to get the action out of the wood for a few pics - have only recently re-bedded the thing and finally managed to get the torques right and the thing shoots in the 10mm ten-ring on 50m!
Although I've got an Anschütz torque thingy, my gun has slotted action screws - the torque wrench has a hex bolt!

Although I made an adapter, it doesn't want to work all that well - side forces or whatever the proper term is come into play and upset the whole thing!
(Actually I found that I can more exactly equalize (is that the right word?) the torque on the two action bolts by hand with the right screwdriver)

Now:
the barrel says something like Model (54?) 1410 Match (or Supermatch - can't remember now and don't really want to take the 36x Scope off - it definitely says 1410)
But that is the (probably) replacement barrel on the action - could it be the other way around? unlikely?

definitely a 1400 round action

original F/P onepiece - see pic
new F/P 2 parts, fatter endpiece, as you say - pic shows diff. end caps with hole 4.6mm and 5mm
so, it's not an 1800 F/P, as I assumed - have learned something!

Nevertheless, the new F/P has definitely been ground back - just measured it - approx 1 - 1.2mm set back as shown in pic - looks done professionally? certainly the angle is 90 deg (square).

In case you wonder: I have a few spare parts for this still excellent rifle, bought over the last 18 months or so.
Being german, I like to have my tools just so! hehe
Also, I'm a retired RFD (Kent) which gave me some inroads to spare parts etc.

I have taken some pics which I'll send now in a separate mssg - just to make sure that everything goes OK.

Should be self-explanatory - if not (and there is a chance, as I'm getting old and decrepit, my brain gets a bit sticky...) just ask for clarification.
(In case anyone wonders - I have taken the butthook off, as I keep my face and shoulders off the gun when shooting this (semi) BR!)

rgds
Gunter

Gunter,

I'd expect a 1965 barrel to be marked with a specific model number. Anschutz changed to a generic mark shortly after. I've not seen one marked 1410 though. This was later used to designate the heavy-barrel version of the 1409. But Anschutz changed their nomenclature at times.

Yes, 5hw barrel could be fitted to a newer action. The tenon dimensions only changed with the 54.30. However I wouldn't expect headspace to be spot on with a random barrel/action combination. A 1400 bolt would also fit a later receiver, as would a 5039 trigger.

I was lucky and found a Brittool torque driver on eBay a few years ago. That takes 1/4in bits, so slotted heads are no problem. That said having an alu stock, I only torque the bolts on my rifle once a year - just tighten and forget.

I don't have a dog, but a toddler is probably as curious.

here some pics, if it works:

it has certainly given me something interesting to do on an otherwise boring saturday evening!
If I can learn something from this exercise, so much the better - and I have learned something already!


Best regards
Gunter

Tim,
1410 - yes, definitely a heavy barrel! - will take some pics of the markings when scope next off.
But it definitely says '1410' - of that I'm sure!

Headspace: interesting you say that! out of the two bolt handles & sleeves only ONE combination fits exactly!
One bolt will only close with force; the other with only one of the sleeves closes tight without play!
with or without a cartridge
- don't ask me which one does which!
- I made the unforgivable mistake of not noting which was which (the old or new bolt handle)!
- but I found the best combination and that is what I'm using - hehe
Anyway - it shoots keyholes if I do not wobble!!

Still interested in what you think of the barrel/action combination conundrum!

Best regards
Gunter

missed a pic - didn't show

here goes:

David Levene,
Hi, if you can steer me to the page where I can do that, I'll gladly do so!
Have not been able to find a way so far but then I'm old and have only been here for a couple of hours! Give me a break!
Anyways, I told y'all who and where I was in the very first message here tonight, so I hope I did not contravene any forum rules inadvertently?!
Best regards
Gunter H. Maskort
NRA (USA) Life 1974
Kenya Center Fire Pistol Champion 1975 (UIT/ISU-ISSF)
UK Bisley Centre Fire Pistol Gold Medal 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980 (UIT/ISU-ISSF)
and some others

Gunter,

That's definitely a 6-digit serial number. I suspect the final 0 is a mistake, and it should be 48,898. Although the 0 is repeated on the bolt, I'm not surprised since these are fitted after the barrel. It's also possible the bolt is not the original, but a later replacement; that would explain the two-claw bolt. I think this is a 1960s rifle, with a unique serial number, not a 1913 receiver with 1960s parts. It's easy to check though. 1913 receivers have a notch on the underside, just ahead of the forward bedding bolt hole. A 1960s 1400 receiver won't have this. The few replacement parts are unremarkable on a 53yo rifle; these are exactly what the factory service team would supply at Bisley.

I see the firing pin now. That's a later model 1400 pin. An 18/1900 pin is much slimmer, and the notch is far more pronounced. I think the bent has been filed to engage better with the trigger. It''s also possible there was a burr to remove, or that the filer wanted to increase strike depth on the case.

I'm not sure that hard bolt closure always means tight headspace. My first rifle, a 1970 1407, was always stiff, but the Anschutz team at Bisley declared the headspace was too wide. I know of rifles with correct (0.042-43in) headspace that close easily with just a finger.

Tim
thanks for all the info. You are probably right in assuming that the '0' at the end of s/n was a mistake.
Next time I have the action out of the wood I will check for that notch - but it's highly unlikely that this is anything else than a 60's 1400 action!
Whats that notch look like? going across from left to right? or lengthwise? rough size?

You put 'headspace' into my head now! - hehe

As I don't have any HS gauges, I've come up with a highly scientific method of (roughly) measuring
the HS on my rifle.

have cut a small piece of thin cardboard (outer of a cig.paper booklet) and placed it between boltface and barrel - clear of the extractor!.
Bolt will just about close on it with more force than normally required.
thickness of that piece of cardboard is 0,13mm (5thou?)

Highly inexact, to say the least, measuring in thou's - but gives me a rough idea at least.

then I took the bolt out and placed it vertical
put an empty Eley Match case in, under the extractor
rim was slightly proud of boltface.
put the cardboard next to rim on boltface -
and the thickness of cardboard was exactly the amount the rim was proud of boltface!

Would that mean the HS is correct?
Unless I made a mistake in my thinking process (which happens frequently!)
there would be Zero space between boltface, rim and barrel when bolt is closed?

Then I found in another forum someone mention Eley Match having a rim thickness of .385
So, my cardboard being 0.13mm = about 5thou, that should give

.385
.050
-------
.435 or 43.5

is that correct?

I can hear you all laughing already - hehe
but it helps passing the time on a sunday afternoon!

Best regards
Gunter

Gunter,

The notch is at 6 o'clock on the front face of the receiver. It's about 3mm square, cut back towards the trigger.

I'm not sure that fired cases give an accurate HS measurement. Firstly the rim is thin hollow brass, and easily deformed. Secondly, it expands on firing, but does it return exactly to it's pre-firing size? To my mind steel gauges will give a more accurate, and repeatably accurate, measurement. A machinist friend made mine for beer, but a set from Barry Nesom is £50 well spent.

HS of 0.0435in would be fine for a 53yo rifle. If you are only shooting Eley, you could go a little tighter, but that may be too tight for Lapua/RWS.

Tim,
thanks.
shall have to have a look for Barry Nesom. - unless someone has got some not needed anymore which I could buy?

How would I go about reducing HS if it came to that? - not something I have looked at before..

Yes, I tend to shoot only Eley with that rifle.

Rgds
Gunter

Gunter,

Barry doesn't have a website, but you can get him on 01751 473124. He's up in Yorkshire, near Pickering.

Handily Barry also makes shims to adjust headspace. These slip onto the bolt body, under the handle.

have just remembered that I have a lathe! - and decided to save myself some money

made a couple of gauges from hard brass - had a convenient 8mm rod lying around.

one is 1.10mm (43.5) - bolt just shuts on it with pressure
the other 1.05mm (41.5?) - no resistance at all

so, 43.5 or 43 it is!

my earlier 'scientific' experimental measurement with thin cigarette paper card came
pretty darn close! hehe

I suppose I don't have to worry about tightening this up?
As I said, this rifle shoots pretty good provided I don't wobble and keep concentrated

Best regards
Gunter

Hi all,
it's been some time - still shooting the old girl and having acceptable results for my age. (a few more Kent County Medals)

Tim - thanks for the tip on HS shims! Have bought a selection and run with a .2mm shim
Have changed over to SK Flatnose Match for practice and Lapua Center X for comp.
Good stuff! - and no more 'gunking up' of the chamber and 'misfires' as had become regular with Eley Sport & Match.

Have also spent some more money I don't really have (hehe) and bought one of the BR50 Stock clones from that chap in Yorkshire!
After adjusting the inletting, making & fitting a proper (steel) recoil lug and bedding the action (I've got a milling machine, which helps!),
I'm very pleased with it. £200+ well spent!

Also made some 'fine adjustment' to my Junior Caldwell rest.
vertical fine adj. - flexible 6mm hex extension for cordless drill (with hand-wheel attached)
drilled through foot and put m6 thread on a long 6mm hex bit

then, one day when I was bored and had come across some (worm)gear motors on ebay (from China of course)
I had a further look to see whether one could find a cross-slide for a mini lathe - and I found one - in China again! hehe
Took the hand crank off the slide and attached the motor - which conveniently had an m6 threaded rod attached (same as the
handcrank on the slide) and made a plate to match the two.
used an Eley ammo box to make the control (a car window switch, a battery holder for 2 CR123s and some connectors I had in
my Ham Radio spares box.

Attached the thing to the Caldwell with 4 screws to an intermediate wood-block (will change to Aluminium soon)
and took it to the range - works a treat!!
Especially if Kent is going to change to the 25m targets on 50m, as is currently talked about (10 bulls on a card; one shot on each)

So, enough for today, greetings to all and good shooting
Gunter

Hi Gunter,

That looks smart.

Did you mean a 0.002in shim? 0.2mm would be pretty big; it's the difference between a SAAMI Go gauge and a Reject. Unless your HS has increased dramatically since last year, a 0.2mm shim would make it mega tight. Whereas a 0.002in shim would make it tight.