TargetTalk

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:12 am**

just two grips made by Vito Spilotro

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:51 am**

Wow. Nice ones. Need a some for my pardini!!!

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:40 am**

In 10m AP there's a rule stating that the grip may not allow the thumb to bend down past 90°. Is this not the case in the sort of pistol competition where these pistols are used? Nice looking carving in any case.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:17 am**

Found this rule. "Any ***upward*** curvature of the heel and/or thumb rest and/or a downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb is prohibited. The thumb rest must allow free upward movement of the thumb." In those pictures the curvature of the thumb rest is not "upward", imo.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:59 pm**

scerir wrote:Found this rule. "Any ***upward*** curvature of the heel and/or thumb rest and/or a downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb is prohibited. The thumb rest must allow free upward movement of the thumb." In those pictures the curvature of the thumb rest is not "upward", imo.

The ISSF rule referred to (offhand I do not know the number, David L will quote it) shows a view of the grip from the rear not the side.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:33 pm**

that image about pistol grips (ISSF rule book)

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:35 pm**

Gerard wrote:In 10m AP there's a rule stating that the grip may not allow the thumb to bend down past 90°. Is this not the case in the sort of pistol competition where these pistols are used? Nice looking carving in any case.

What rule number is that? I must have missed it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:40 pm**

Seems my memory is fuzzy. This is quoted from the most current (just downloaded) rules:

ISSF Rules wrote: rule 8.12
10m Air Pistol Grips: No part of the grip, frame or accessories may touch any part of the wrist. The heel rest must extend at an angle of not less than 90 degrees to the grip. This applies to the heel rest in front and behind the grip as well as on the sides.
a) Any upward curvature of the heel and/or thumb rest and/or a downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb is prohibited. The thumb rest must allow free upward movement of the thumb. The grip must not encircle the hand. Curved surfaces on the grips or frame, including the heel and/or thumb rest, in the longitudinal direction of the pistol are permitted.
b) 25m Pistol Grips: Note a) applies. In addition, the rear part of the frame or grip which rests on top of the hand between the thumb and the forefinger, must not be longer than 30 mm from the point where the grip first touches the top of the hand forward to the deepest part of the grip. The back (rear) part of the grip must be cut so that it angles upward from that point by not less than 45 degrees.

Seems perhaps I was recalling the bit about 'downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb' being prohibited as meaning the thumb rest itself. What does this mean then? The part above the index finger? Or is it referring to the part of the thumb rest above and inside the thumb as being opposite? I find the wording of much of these rules confusing. Why not index such comments with numeric designations to accompany matching drawings, pointing to exactly what element they're describing?

In any case, my apologies if I've pointlessly taken this thread off track.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:40 pm**

Gerard wrote:
Seems perhaps I was recalling the bit about 'downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb' being prohibited as meaning the thumb rest itself. What does this mean then?

If you look at the 8.13 drawing posted above, the thumb side is on the left and the side opposite the thumb is on the right.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:26 am**

I'd rather study the other side of the grips than the rulebook... Wonder who studied whom, between Vito and Ralf Schumann, seems to be the same idea of positioning the hand and use the thumb.

Interesting that some people assume others to have ignored the rules, even when looking at the work of the grip guru of one of the most successful companies in the business. Might be one of the reasons why nothing interesting goes on here anymore.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:39 am**

Gerard wrote: I find the wording of much of these rules confusing. Why not index such comments with numeric designations to accompany matching drawings, pointing to exactly what element they're describing?

Yes, poor wording indeed!

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:51 am**

Tycho wrote: Wonder who studied whom, between Vito and Ralf Schumann, seems to be the same idea of positioning the hand and use the thumb.

Another "strange" position of the thumb (air pistol, Mauro Badaracchi)

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:22 am**

scerir wrote:Another "strange" position of the thumb (air pistol, Mauro Badaracchi)

Nothing strange. Hold you (empty) hand in it's natural relaxed position, close it as if to make a fist and your thumb points to the trigger or middle finger.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:11 am**

j-team wrote: Nothing strange. Hold you (empty) hand in it's natural relaxed position, close it as if to make a fist and your thumb points to the trigger or middle finger.

I'm inclined to think that unusual (maybe natural?) position of the thumb has something to do with the best control of the pistol. Here (see pic) Mauro Badaracchi and his free pistol. In this case (pic) the perfect control of the pistol is achieved easily because of the full wrap-around grip. Maybe.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:21 am**

scerir wrote: Here (see pic) Mauro Badaracchi and his free pistol. In this case (pic) the perfect control of the pistol...

You are right, in that picture he has the steadiest hold I've ever seen!!!

Posted: **Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:33 am**

Yes, I wish that my hold was that steady! Especially for Free pistol...

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:42 am**

Has anyone had any experience with training with bandages or other stuff on your hand that would theoretically influence the grip? How did that go?

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:01 pm**

There is another question. And I do not know the answer.
A) On the left (see the attached picture) there is a standard grip, regular, every "section" of the grip is < 50 mm wide, also the ***projection*** of the grip at the bottom is = 50 mm wide. Of course the grip fits into the box.
B) On the right (see the attached picture) there is another grip, a bit "angled", every "section" of the grip is < 50 mm wide, but the ***projection*** of the grip at the bottom is >> 50 mm. Also this grip, of course, fits into the box.
C) Now the question: are both allowed?

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:01 pm**

Using pictures, drawings, projections is essentially wasted effort, my friend. The measurements are set for THE BOX that the pistol has to fit into so the utilization of orthogonal projections is not useful. The shape of the grip can the severely slanted to one side such that you might get a 35 mm palm shelf - the only requirement is that the top of the shelf may not be less than 90 degrees to the vertical, I.e. It may NOT wrap up around the hand, similarly the thumb rest must be flat and no less than 90degrees to the vertical . You are not going to get the ISSF to change. Accept it and move on.

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:07 pm**

Sorry, I got carried away. The answer you want is that if it goes into box and the angles of palm and thumb rest are ok, the pistol is legal.

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