TargetTalk

Are you suggesting that my friend and fellow Sagres guzzler RMCA can't shoot 7mm 10m groups offhand?

the tin pellets are very hard! can't be squished with fingers like lead. So again, the question comes whether it will damage the barrel. Unlike lead, they retain their shape somewhat after slamming against the pellet trap. Danger of ricochet

hundert wrote:the tin pellets are very hard! can't be squished with fingers like lead. So again, the question comes whether it will damage the barrel. Unlike lead, they retain their shape somewhat after slamming against the pellet trap. Danger of ricochet

One of the clubs I am a member of has an indoor firearms range, where lead is prohibited. You must buy either the Winchester tin alloy .22 ammo or CCI copper/amalgam from the Club. I have been advised not to shoot that ammo through any pistol I care about. I assume the same would hold true for an air pistol bore, although maybe lower velocity would make a difference. In any event, I am sticking with lead.

I would boycott any club that prohibited lead ammo and start some group direct action to change their minds. or get elected to the board or get a group of real sportsmen to buy them out. Do something.

What is the matter with these snowflake faux-green zealots?

Rover wrote:Are you suggesting that my friend and fellow Sagres guzzler RMCA can't shoot 7mm 10m groups offhand?

If YOU believe in yourself, ANYTHING is possible. No need for the beer…

hundert wrote:the tin pellets are very hard! can't be squished with fingers like lead. So again, the question comes whether it will damage the barrel.

Since tin alloy is softer than the steel used in airgun barrels, there will be no damage that affects accuracy. Besides, some are hammer forged, increasing the barrel’s life.

kevinweiho:
Also lead is softer than steel. Why does lead bullet fly through the steel plate? It's just power and speed ie. forming energy.
Tin or bismuth alloy is much harder than pure lead. The choke of the barrel will be removed gradually and the barrel of losing accuracy.
Have a nice day.

pbrejsa wrote:kevinweiho:
Also lead is softer than steel. Why does lead bullet fly through the steel plate? It's just power and speed ie. forming energy.
Tin or bismuth alloy is much harder than pure lead. The choke of the barrel will be removed gradually and the barrel of losing accuracy. Have a nice day.

It’s the kinetic energy in a bullet or pellet that allows it to go through a steel plate.

OK, tin alloy is harder than pure lead, but the energy produced by a match air pistol is not the same as a firearm, thus wear and tear in the barrel is negligible.

I'm sorry, but try to bump your head on the water speed of 160 m / s. You see what is more important - energy or wear. I am a metallurgist with over 40 years experience. I apologize again for such a brutal comparison. The barrel of a firearm has not choke as a precise airgun. Yet after 100 thousand shots remove choke of airgun barrel.

pbrejsa wrote:I'm sorry, but try to bump your head on the water speed of 160 m / s. You see what is more important - energy or wear. I am a metallurgist with over 40 years experience. I apologize again for such a brutal comparison. The barrel of a firearm has not choke as a precise airgun. Yet after 100 thousand shots remove choke of airgun barrel.

Pbrejsa, I’m not into jet skiing or powerboat racing, I won’t be bumping my head on water at 160 m/s. anytime soon to see what happens…! lol

In ten meter match airguns, I’ve yet to hear of wearing out a barrel. It would be interesting for other members to chime in who have high pellet counts (100K or over) with their guns and see if they needed to replace or just clean the barrels to restore accuracy.

If I'm not mistaken, Anshütz rimfire rifle barrels are choked.

kevinweiho wrote:

Rover wrote:Are you suggesting that my friend and fellow Sagres guzzler RMCA can't shoot 7mm 10m groups offhand?

If YOU believe in yourself, ANYTHING is possible. No need for the beer…

Blasphemy! When on Earth was there a "no need for beer..." !?

Now, 7mm center to center, yes I can... for about 5 to 6 shots... then one opens up.
I have some 98's and 99's, that except for one shot, may be within those 7mm... does that count? ;)

kevinweiho:
yes there are some rifled small bore of long firearms barrels with very small choking (0,01-0,02 micrometer). These barrels are mainly intended for pure lead unjacketed bullets only (no alloys of tin or bismuth). But such barrel loses the high precision much earlier than barrel with cylindrical bore.

Remember that most of the metals and metal alloys are easily deformed at forming speed over 120 m/s. This phenomenon is similar superplasticity

rmca wrote:

kevinweiho wrote:

Rover wrote:Are you suggesting that my friend and fellow Sagres guzzler RMCA can't shoot 7mm 10m groups offhand?

If YOU believe in yourself, ANYTHING is possible. No need for the beer…

Blasphemy! When on Earth was there a "no need for beer..." !?

Now, 7mm center to center, yes I can... for about 5 to 6 shots... then one opens up.
I have some 98's and 99's, that except for one shot, may be within those 7mm... does that count? ;)

Tell me after you’ve taken a couple of beers and if you’re still capable of shooting good groups. I could be wrong, maybe your alcohol tolerance is better than mine... :)

You know why elite shooters are better than us? Because they REALLY believe in themselves, allowing them to achieve a higher mental control over their body.

pbrejsa wrote:Remember that most of the metals and metal alloys are easily deformed at forming speed over 120 m/s. This phenomenon is similar superplasticity

Pbrejsa, the big enemies to the reduction of barrel life and accuracy is friction, pressure and heat. Like I said before, match airguns do not generate the same energy as firearms.

Don’t fret about wearing out the barrel. Shoot to your heart’s content and hopefully you can pass down the airguns as heirlooms in your family.

"Tell me after you’ve taken a couple of beers and if you’re still capable of shooting good groups. I could be wrong, maybe your alcohol tolerance is better than mine... :) "

Well, I had a discussion with a Russian neuro-surgeon shooting at our range. He told me that it was common for the surgeons to have a shot or two of vodka before an operation to reduce "essential tremor" (shakiness). Who am I to argue with the "pros".

Rover wrote:"Tell me after you’ve taken a couple of beers and if you’re still capable of shooting good groups. I could be wrong, maybe your alcohol tolerance is better than mine... :) "

Well, I had a discussion with a Russian neuro-surgeon shooting at our range. He told me that it was common for the surgeons to have a shot or two of vodka before an operation to reduce "essential tremor" (shakiness). Who am I to argue with the "pros".

A local friend who's an avid powder burner shooter, insists that before shooting (and he was more talking about coming over to shoot air guns at my personal range I hope) you should have a drink. I was surprised and said that I thought drinking and shooting (like driving) should never go together. He replied that he wasn't talking about any kind of serious drinking at all, but a single shot only, and just to steady that tremor you mentioned.

While I've got you, have you ever tested H&N Sport pellets against the RWS Basics? There seems to be ONLY one source for Basics here in Canada and I've recently cleaned out their stock entirely. (And they're really rather great pellets!) They're now waiting for another shipment to arrive (about a month they say). And the Basics they get are NOT available in sleeves like other pellets, but only in individual blister packs. Making them (probably) more expensive for all.

But I can get H&N Sport pellets in Canada for a wee bit less money than the Basics would cost. Since I'm just about out of pellets (I've been shooting the Basics in both my pistol and rifle) I think I'm going to order a sleeve of them to try. Unless I hear back from you that they're crap.

Cheers!

Mtl_Biker wrote:

Rover wrote:...<snip>...
While I've got you, have you ever tested H&N Sport pellets against the RWS Basics? There seems to be ONLY one source for Basics here in Canada and I've recently cleaned out their stock entirely. (And they're really rather great pellets!) They're now waiting for another shipment to arrive (about a month they say). And the Basics they get are NOT available in sleeves like other pellets, but only in individual blister packs. Making them (probably) more expensive for all.

But I can get H&N Sport pellets in Canada for a wee bit less money than the Basics would cost. Since I'm just about out of pellets (I've been shooting the Basics in both my pistol and rifle) I think I'm going to order a sleeve of them to try. Unless I hear back from you that they're crap.

I think you should venture forth, try them out, and let us know. I am awaiting delivery, probably today, on four tins of Basics, all on the strength of these discussions, having just about exhausted my sleeve of Vogel yellows. I doubt that H&N puts out any really bad stuff.

Ed333 wrote: I think you should venture forth, try them out, and let us know. I am awaiting delivery, probably today, on four tins of Basics, all on the strength of these discussions, having just about exhausted my sleeve of Vogel yellows. I doubt that H&N puts out any really bad stuff.

WRONGO!!!!!!!

Trying to save money on training pellets, a couple of months ago I bought a sleeve of H&N Excite pellets. Absolute crap!!!!

(This was before I got the Basics to test, but the Basics proved to give just ever so slightly larger groups - even hard to measure - than the JSB Match Diabolo:)

And I'd done the Excite test two times because I couldn't believe the first result.

Houngan wrote:

AlexFromPardini wrote:
I test pellets everytime I am in competition in Germany so about 1-2 times per year. Now, I know I am an extreme since I am on the pistol team, but I find that the more you start testing pellets the more you give yourself an "out" for the problems. I personally only test to find a match lot for the coming competitions and then in training I use whatever I have laying around...my K12 shoots RWS R10 rifle 4.49 the best and I get great groups everytime. Well within the 10 ring. My match lot that I use is within the x ring.

However, recently I have decided to try something...I noticed my pistol likes a match lot for about 6-7 months. Then it starts opening up.. So i just got a batch from RWS that I will exclusively use for the coming months. I will set 2-3 times aside for big matches but everything else will be using the match lot. This way I can see whether the match lot changes as a result of the use of different pellet brands/sizes or if its just through use.

Might be extreme, but perhaps a single lot of pellets but store them in a container of nitrogen gas to eliminate oxidation? Certainly nothing that would matter to anyone normal, but it would arrest the lead changing from oxidation.

This is definitely a bit extreme. I for example, had a match lot of R10 pellets that were 20 years old. No issues and great groups. I would not go this far into thinking about it. No offense meant, but obsessing is going too far. Just shoot, barrels are designed in such a way that if the oxidation made such a difference people would have bigger issues. If the pellets in the tin are oxidizing before you can finish them, you just arent training enough :)

Mtl_biker, well I guess you got a couple of good responses. I have never tested them myself, but I've certainly said you guys should test stuff YOURself. (Too many factors!)

And Alex, I think the tape on the tin protects perfectly against oxidation, although I will use pellets that are oxidized with no decrease in performance that I can see.