TargetTalk

Have read in various sources that the Model 52 has a widely accepted reputation for being a rather "unforgiving" target

pistol. Don't hear of this comment being leveled at any other Bullseye Guns, regardless of their make, model and caliber.

Never fired a 52. Am not in the market for one either. Am curious; just what characteristics or features does this pistol

have that makes it so "unforgiving"? Is it the pistol or the "nut" behind the trigger that's to blame for this gun's

reputation? Model 52 owners: please enlighten me!

I owned one at one time. Great gun, and fun to shoot. I have a high master friend who shoots one rather well.

I think the biggest problem is the bullet. Those full wadcutter rounds are like a flying beer can. Almost anything can cause the bullet to tip, or not shoot to call. Not enough crimp, too much crimp, damaged base, limp wrist, you name it.
The bullet also travels more slowly, so poor triggering and wrist errors exagerate a bad shot.


This is generally what is meant, I believe, by *unforgiving*.

Other guns let you get away with small errors, and still keep your shots in the black. The Smith doesn't.

Having used one for a few years...IMHO the trigger was really nice and crisp---however when reloading for this gun for competition---it will and has driven quite a few owners to seek psychiatric help and meds. The wadcutter tends to tip and present side shots and cause scoring problems. any screw up with trigger control will throw shots wide and wild. The biggest problem is the inability to mount a scope on the slide forcing a shooter to resort to B-square mounts...these I hate with a passion. Therefore it follows that< I sold it and have been off my meds for quite some time now......."Doc" (I think????)

Mid range factory ammo is 710 fps. or 8520 inches per sec.. The rifled section of a factory 52 barrel is less than 4 inches. The factory barrel is 18.75 twist.
At that speed, twist, and rpm the long 148 HBWC is really never stable in imo. The land to groove ratio is 1:1, 5 lands/5grooves each approx. .100 in width. The yaw marks on the target prove that the bullet is not stable. As far as the bullet barrel time myth.. Even at the slow 710fps vs a less than 4 inch barrel.. The bullet is in the barrel for a micro/ nano second, so the very common, "Your follow thru must be perfect, or you'll throw the bullet off." does not compute. Barrel time is very near that or equal to the .45 It's 1800 inches to the 50 yard line.. Velocity is not the issue..
I bore scoped two factory new 52 barrels today.. I am rather impressed with the interior quality of the barrel.. There is no chamber shoulder. Straight wall to what I estimate as a 3 degree leade. I could be wrong, but it's not a sharpe as a 5 and not as long as a 1-1/2.. The leade has been single point cut, which leaves a fine thread type tool mark. It appears well centered, but I would prefer a reamer cut which would be a little smoother.
I thinks it's a great gun, that got short changed in a couple of areas..
Jerry

I also owned one and shot in competition some years back. It is a very precision gun, it is a very accurate gun. I wish I know the reasons, but I experienced the same phenomenon, "when you are on your on, but when you are off you are way off". If I was doing O.K. I could shoot 10's & X's, but if I pulled a shot it wouldn't go in the 9, or 8, but usually a 7. With my 1911's if I pulled a shot it would take a 9 or at the most an 8.

I recall talking to Lou Lombardi, (Falcon precision barrels) a few years ago and he mentioned the same thing, and stated the two happiest days he had were the day he bought his 52 and the day he sold it. I personally think it may have something to do with the grip shape and weight. It felt so good in your hand and balanced so well you would unconsciously relax your grip a little, and that contributed to the flyers.

The rifling twist is the same as the S&W revolvers, but I think they used 9mm (.355") barrels (I could be thinking of Colt barrels).

The HBWCs were always marginally unstable in that configuration, but using the shorter regular WCs fixed that.

My own gun was fussy and it took 3.2gr of 700X (hotter than the Speer manual allowed) to get tight groups.

I have been shooting one for a few years and the reason I bought it was, as noted by pasa008, the fact that it felt so good the instant I picked it up. I wasn't shooting any CF target pistols at the time - all I had was a TOZ 35M and an older S&W M41 - and every 1911 I picked up felt like I was gripping a plank. When someone at the local gun shop handed me a 52-1 it fit my hand so well that I did not want to put it down. I'm not sure I would have bought it had I known more about it. It is definitely fussy about ammo - quality commercial WC's are expensive, cheap WC's, like purchased reloads, lead up like mad, and handloads with Bullseye powder (the near-universally recommended fodder) tend to foul the bore more than any other gun I've seen. I love to shoot it, but dread cleaning it.

BTW, w/ respect to red dot mounts, my eyes have gotten to the point that open sights are too difficult to use. The 52 I have came with a grip mount (don't know if it's a B-square), but it sends a vibration thorough the gun with every shot like it's twanging a big spring. I've been considering a no-drill BME mount (http://www.bme-mounts.com/productlist.h ... ultradotlt ) just so I can keep shooting this difficult gun.

Roger

Roger, it looks like BME makes a variety of mounts for the Smith and Wesson Model 52. Did you see the picture of the mount, a friend machined for his 52?

David Sams style frame mount...
But as Isabel points out, it is "possible", marginally so, to slide mount.. With the new Aimpoint Micro, it is probably easier than it has been to get proper cycling and function..

I noticed that pic in another thread. It looks clean without the extra recoil grooves and your friend did a nice job on it. I'm considering getting the cutter to make that kind of mount in my shop for other guns, but I still would really rather not drill holes in the 52. Maybe I'm taking the whole "classic" thing too seriously ...

Roger

I view a competitive pistol, much like a NASCAR crew chief looks at the car.. Whatever it takes to run with in the limitation of the rules...

Jerry Keefer wrote:David Sams style frame mount...
But as Isabel points out, it is "possible", marginally so, to slide mount.. With the new Aimpoint Micro, it is probably easier than it has been to get proper cycling and function..

I tried slide mounting an Aimpoint micro once on my 45. Even with a 9 pound spring in the gun, it would still not reliably eject the same load that an Ultradot on a David Sams mount and a 14 pound spring in the gun handled flawlessly. So, the reduced weight doesn't help as much as you think it does with the slide drag issue.


Very pretty Jerry. If I didn't already have a very nice 9mm for Centerfire (with a SCG frame mount) I might try that.

Very nice. Classic or no, that would definitely enhance the value of the gun, especially the part that says "Keefer Custom".

However, since getting my gun Keeferized is not likely and a slide mount in the rear sight dovetail may not work, I am leaning towards the BME S&W52-BWR which mounts to the grooves normally used for the barrel weights.


Roger

That's an interesting mount!

As far as the OP's initial comment about the 52 being 'unforgiven'... to me, it was a matter of rear sight. It was just too tight to my liking. Got 'spare' sight blade, a few minutes with a file... and all is well.

It is my belief, for the most part, that when a pistol seems unforgiving, it is most often due to the grips not fitting quite right. I had a Model 52 at one time that I used for international CF, and it did seem unforgiving...perhaps because it had been drilled into my head that is was so. If something is repeated enough, it eventually becomes fact like. However, I also shot a 1911 in 38 Special for the same event, and that model did not seem to be unforgiving. In my case, I think that perhaps the arched mainspring housing of the 52 just didn't quite fit me correctly. It might be that the way the arched part pushes back into the center of my hand, it might be very sensitive to any slight changes in grip force, thereby pushing the grip very slightly in one direction or the other. Once again, my 1911 38 Special, with a flat mainspring housing, did not seem to have this same characteristic.

Evolution of a S&W 52 barrel..
Planning, mapping, machining from a Shilen blank, pile of chips to the roughed out blank..roughed out blank ready for the mill

Brand new factory barrel on the right..Notice the shape of the upper locking lug..nothing more than a circumference clearance cut.. "IF", it locks up at all,, it's at 12 oclock.. Far from ideal.Just one of the areas where I fell S&W dropped the ball on the 52.. I machined the barrel on the left with a radius identical to the radius of the slide, similar to the 1911 match barrel fit up..

90% complete..

Jerry, that is some fantastic work. Most folks can't fathom just how hard that is. One slight mistake and hours of work are scrap. I have no doubt in your abililities after watching your posts over the years. Just fantastic.

Jerry,
What are your plans for the bushing and will your new barrel have the dog knot like the S&W, where the barrel fits in the bushing? I'm guessing you haven't finished the front of the barrel shown.

Stephen

Sa-tevo wrote:Jerry,
What are your plans for the bushing and will your new barrel have the dog knot like the S&W, where the barrel fits in the bushing? I'm guessing you haven't finished the front of the barrel shown.

Stephen

Stephen
In the post above with the full 52 picture, you can see a little bit of the new bushing.. I made a much larger, thicker. full thread depth bushing.. And I going to use something similar to the S&W muzzle dimensions.. Been out of town for a few days, just got back..I try to post some more soon..

Greg Derr wrote:Jerry, that is some fantastic work. Most folks can't fathom just how hard that is. One slight mistake and hours of work are scrap. I have no doubt in your abililities after watching your posts over the years. Just fantastic.

Thank you Greg.. I just got back from Jamestown, NY.. All I can say is, "That I am super glad to be back in Va".. This morning was -2 with three feet + in most places.. I-86 was really iced up on the bridges and other high, wind swept spots.. Love that heavy Toyota 4 Runner with 4x4..I feel bad for you..!!!!!!!