TargetTalk

At my club, I found some old yellow targets, with large oval scoring rings... I questioned the (really) old guys and they told me they used those "back in the day" for the rapid-fire stage of center-fire pistol. Are they talking about ISSF (ISU) 25m center-fire pistol? If so, when did the target change to their circular shape of today, with a 10cm 10-ring? Were the scores higher with these targets?

Yes, those are rapid fire/center fire 25m targets.

Yes, scores were higher; they retired the old records when they changed the target.

I don't recall off the top of my head when they changed. It was before I started shooting in the '90s (well before, I think), but I seem to recall that either Bill McMillan or Bill Blankenship set a World Record in CF on the old targets in the 1960s, and the record was retired.

If you have ever seen an old rapid fire bay like the one in your top picture, the target opening is much larger, to accomodate these targets.

From memory the tapered "top and tail" were squared off around 1980 (possibly the 1981 rules) and the top and bottom were then removed in the 1985 rules.

The circular target was introduced in the 1989 rules.

I thought that the target centres for all of the versions was .75m

David is right.

Circular targets from 10 to 5 were introduced for ISSF (then still UIT) RF and duel stage of CF as of 01.01.89 (at the same time 50 meter rifle and 10 meter pistol and rifle targes were reduced in diameter, and FP and AP times were shortened by 1/2 an hour for the full course)

And the CF record John Bickar remembers was set at the 1963 PAG at Sao Paulo 1963 by Thomas Smith III (USA - I recall he was teamed with Blankenship and McMillan, but I may be wrong concerning this) with 597 points (599 precision, 598 duel) and stood until the targets were changed.

From 1896 to 1948 the targets were usually a man-sized silhouette and the targets (and distance and timing) varied a bit at the whim of the host organisers.
The target scoring rings (when used) were elliptical and used to break ties - scores were based on hit/miss.
Early RF was six targets and the revolvers were of the usual calibre (i.e. .44 Russian)

1948 London Olympics had what was basically the current qualification course of fire, five targets per shooter, 25m and 8, 6 and 4 seconds series/
The scoring rings were 'obround' with the 10-ring 150mm high x 100mm wide..
The rectangular target went through a series of PC changes and eventually was cropped to 760m height.

The circular target with circular scoring rings was introduced after 1988 Seoul Olympics to 'suit' electronic targets and the white lines added in 1994.

Yup, and plenty of old ranges still have the legacy target frames in use. This photo is from the Phoenix Rod and Gun club.

Black man-shaped targets became non-PC. Now you can guess the rest of the story.

renzo wrote:David is right.

Circular targets from 10 to 5 were introduced for ISSF (then still UIT) RF and duel stage of CF as of 01.01.89 (at the same time 50 meter rifle and 10 meter pistol and rifle targes were reduced in diameter, and FP and AP times were shortened by 1/2 an hour for the full course)

And the CF record John Bickar remembers was set at the 1963 PAG at Sao Paulo 1963 by Thomas Smith III (USA - I recall he was teamed with Blankenship and McMillan, but I may be wrong concerning this) with 597 points (599 precision, 598 duel) and stood until the targets were changed.

Yes, thank you, I think it was TD Smith.

But probably 299 precision, 298 duell ;).

I started shooting RF in 1986 on the "torso" targets, but all of the frames back then were full height to take the coffin lids.

I remember the working bee at my club when we cut the frames to take the smaller boards, my lack of overhead welding skills were clear for all to see that day!

john bickar wrote:

renzo wrote:David is right.

Circular targets from 10 to 5 were introduced for ISSF (then still UIT) RF and duel stage of CF as of 01.01.89 (at the same time 50 meter rifle and 10 meter pistol and rifle targes were reduced in diameter, and FP and AP times were shortened by 1/2 an hour for the full course)

And the CF record John Bickar remembers was set at the 1963 PAG at Sao Paulo 1963 by Thomas Smith III (USA - I recall he was teamed with Blankenship and McMillan, but I may be wrong concerning this) with 597 points (599 precision, 598 duel) and stood until the targets were changed.

Yes, thank you, I think it was TD Smith.

But probably 299 precision, 298 duell ;).

You got me there!!!

Thank you everyone! That's the history lesson I was looking for. I shoot a Smith Wesson Model 14-2 (previously K38) for centerfire. I wanted to put the record below in perspective. No doubt it was impressive shooting (297 slowfire!), but not quite the current 595 (ISSF) / 597 (CISM) records of today.

desben wrote:At my club, I found some old yellow targets, with large oval scoring rings... I questioned the (really) old guys and they told me they used those "back in the day" for the rapid-fire stage of center-fire pistol. Are they talking about ISSF (ISU) 25m center-fire pistol? If so, when did the target change to their circular shape of today, with a 10cm 10-ring? Were the scores higher with these targets?

These are the 'coffin' shape rapid-fire target. They replace the target that had a 'head' in it.
I was told (end the 70's) that the ISU didn't like the man shaped target. I guess to change the impression to the public: not to be shooting at a human style target. So they switched to the coffin-shape target (as shown on the picture)
That still wasn't enough: they cut off the head and the legs: the rectangle. These changes didn't touch the size of the scouring rings.
Finally, the surgery ended with the round rapid-fire target, as we know today.
So far the history as I can remember.
Regards,
Guy