TargetTalk

I have not shot Free Pistol before and need some expert advise! I have shot Bullseye for a few years and enjoy my Benelli MP90S. I think the "cant" on many of the free pistols are similar to the Benelli, so if that helps I might narrow some choices?

Any recommendations would be appreciated. There are a few TOZ 35M's on Gunbroker right now.

Thanks!

First of all i'm no expert but I can tell you that the TOZ is a well made firearm. I compete with one and its alright, although the grip doesn't fit me really. Excellent trigger and rugged construction.

At the top level it seems that it is roughly a 60/40 split between the Morini 84E and the TOZ-35.

The Morini uses a weird 15V battery - but they seem very competitive. Gaining traction down here in NZ as a top free pistol. It is certainly the more expensive option - and I wouldn't bother with the 90 or 220 euro compensator, just something more to clean.

Honourable mention goes to the Pardini: Earlier in the year I had the pleasure of shooting a Pardini FPM - it was nicely made, light and pointed well, although the knuckle joint of the bolt was kind of weird to manipulate and I bet the compensator would be a bastard to clean out.

TL;DR - Pretty hard to go wrong with a TOZ. Stock standard they shoot well - can be upgraded in a number of different ways.

There really is no starting pistol for FP. You basically need to make up your mind whether you want to go for the electronic Morini 84E, or the mechanical TO3-35. They are very different pistols. Both are competitive, however the Morini 84E has an edge when it comes to the major championships. Many top class competitors keep using TO3-35 simply because those are either hand me downs when they were juniors, or they have been competing at this level for more than a decade. T03-35 actually has not won a major championship since the 1996 Olympics, while ironically Morini won its first major championship in 1994.

If you plan to compete for a long time, stick with the Morini, otherwise you can get the TO3-35. There are plenty of parts available for the TO3-35, and also plenty of custom grips available by different makers.

Personally I find the Morini being the more accurate pistol of the two, however, the feel of the Morini is very different from a conventional pistol, especially the recoil. I don't know how to describe it. You have to shoot it to understand it. The TO3-35 is a copy of the Haemmerli MP33, which in turn is a copy of the Buechel Tell. So this is a 103 year old design that is still competitive.

I'd go for the toz for a starter, unless you're lured in by the (relative) newness of the morini and its electronics. Toz's still feature in every major championships and every final that I recal seeing pictures of, so they are undoubtedly more than good enough for anyone. Same with any new gun though, it pays to have a look and hold one before you buy to see if you like the balance etc, but appreciate that isn't always an option.

Rob.

1 - find a coach
2 - ask the coach for advice
3 - if you cannot find a coach, see #1 above

conradin wrote:Many top class competitors keep using TO3-35 simply because those are either hand me downs when they were juniors, or they have been competing at this level for more than a decade.

Sorry, but this is just pure BS. World class shooters that use the toz35 do it because they like this one the most and not because it was handed down to them or because they are just used to it. If they saw any advantage in using a Morini they would snap their fingers and have one in their hand the next day!

Back on the topic...

As a beginner I would be less worried about what world class shooters use and more worried about finding one that fits you. The Toz35 is a very nice and affordable pistol only draw back is that it is not good for people with short fingers. You can't go wrong with either Morini, Match Guns, Hämmerli, Toz35 or Pardini. It is purely personal reference. Regarding rake i would say that toz35, Morini and Pardini is what comes closest to a Benelli

we have a $800 Hammerli and a $1500 Hammerli for sale

You could try shooting with your .22lr gun that you already have, just to try and se how it goes. Plenty of shooters, at least here in Norway, that starts out on the free pistol arena that way.
Just load one bullet at a time.

But pesonally i prefer my Morini CM84E :-)

The Morini, Pardini and new Hammerli have one big advantage over the Toz. They are is in current production with all parts available but Toz parts are getting a lot harder to find.
Old Hammerli and Styer parts are nearly non existant.
Future proof your pistol, go with a current production.

TB wrote:

conradin wrote:Many top class competitors keep using TO3-35 simply because those are either hand me downs when they were juniors, or they have been competing at this level for more than a decade.

Sorry, but this is just pure BS.

Well, if you have seen the recent European Junior Championship, you will find not just TO3-35, but also Buehag (!!!), MTs-55, MTs-2/3. I have not seen an Isch from the video and the photos. Meanwhile only a few kids use Morini, and if I recall, it was the Swiss team. None of these pistols other than Morini is still in production, so they are essentially hand me downs or second/third hand/fourth hand, ie. used. I can imagine these kids will continue to use the pistols as they grew up, or make the decision to switch to a Morini 84E when they were no longer juniors. I can also imagine they will buy their own pistols very soon.

Athletes seldom if ever change their pistols, so once an athlete is comfortable with a pistol, they will stick to it. They would then modify it to make it more personal, such as using Rink grip. It is too complicated to switch from a mechanical one to an electronic one (TO3-35 to Morini 84E). Dumoulin won with a MTs-55 in 1998 (well passed her golden age), Kiriakov won with a Haemerli 16x (well past her competitive days). If you only count WCH and Olympic Gold from 1980 it would be MTs-55 (world record), Haemmerli 15x, Haemmerli 15x, TO3-35, TO3-35, TO3-35, TO3-35, Morini 84E, TO3-35, MTs-55, Haemmerli 16x, Morini 84E, Morini 84E, Morini 84E, Morini 84E, Morini 84E, Morini 84E.

So the last time a major gold medal won by the TO3-35 was in the 1996 Olympics. Most shooters nowadays were still juniors in the 1990s. Morini 84E was still rare and being a novelty then. The athletes probably would have chosen either a TO3-35 or a Haemmerli 15x or 16x.

Dumoulin is now using a Morini 84E. I believe Tanu Kiriakov is retired.
I would not want to count WC as the same class as the WCH and the Olympics. Many athletes, including top ones, skip WC. Jin jong-oh did not bother to show up in the 2012 WC Final. This gives you some idea of how many athletes' views of the WC. The 2012 WC Final was won by Zhang Tian using a Morini. But what I would like to point out was that he was not the best shooter in the Chinese team..not even the top 3.

Sure there are other pistols from Matchguns, Pardini and even Walther-Haemmerli (FP60). But if you were to choose a new pistol, you will want to stick with Morini 84E simply because the majority of the shooters who do not use a mechanical pistol (TO3-35) use the Morini.

For the record I own a Morini 84E but I prefer to shoot using my Buehag, which is the East German clone of the Tell-Mp33-TO3-35, I also have a Haemmerli 100. So I know the difference between the mechanical ones and the electronic ones. I have never tried a Haemmerli 152 or 162, so my knowledge is incomplete. As for Pardini's FPE, I think it is a vaporware because I have never heard of anyone using one.

Not quite 2 years ago c entered our lives with this query about Hämmerli 100 series, 120 and Pardini PGP75:

conradin wrote:I wonder if people still use these free pistols nowadays, or are they considered as collector's items, and not shoot them or just shoot them occasionally for fun? Do people still use them for competitive matches? Do people use them for matches against someone else who also own these guns, sort of like a vintage gun match?
Can they be considered as beginners Free Pistol? There are quite a few of these guns floating around and I don't know what to make of them....they were top of the line back in the 50s but I wonder how relevant they are nowadays even at the club level.

Now, 23 months later we are treated to a nearly be-all and end-all dissertation on the free pistol universe with only one little disclaimer:

I have never tried a Haemmerli 152 or 162, so my knowledge is incomplete.

My Gawd, he even declares the Pardini FPE to be "vaporware." How can one person learn so much in so little time?

PS: The popular Russian pistol referred to comes from the Tula Arms Factory (Тульский оружейный завод in Russian). The third word - factory - begins with a letter which is universally rendered in English with a Z. Use of the 3 to imitate the Cyrillic is more than a little pretentious.

David M wrote:... but Toz parts are getting a lot harder to find.

Larrys Guns in Maine has a big supply of New/Old TOZ35s and plenty of parts. I just bought one from him a month ago - Rink grips too.

Awesome.

S

william wrote:Not quite 2 years ago c entered our lives with this query about Hämmerli 100 series, 120 and Pardini PGP75:

conradin wrote:I wonder if people still use these free pistols nowadays, or are they considered as collector's items, and not shoot them or just shoot them occasionally for fun? Do people still use them for competitive matches? Do people use them for matches against someone else who also own these guns, sort of like a vintage gun match?
Can they be considered as beginners Free Pistol? There are quite a few of these guns floating around and I don't know what to make of them....they were top of the line back in the 50s but I wonder how relevant they are nowadays even at the club level.

Now, 23 months later we are treated to a nearly be-all and end-all dissertation on the free pistol universe with only one little disclaimer:

I have never tried a Haemmerli 152 or 162, so my knowledge is incomplete.

I am a little more experienced in 23 months. That question was asked because I owned the Buehag and I found myself initially shot better with it than my Morini. 23 months ago I did not have the luxury of watching that as yet to exist event, video and pictures. 23 months ago I have yet to touch a firearm. The Video it caught my eye when one kid was using a Buehag, the same pistol that I have. The trigger guard is very distinctive. BTW, I did not see any PGP75 in the video, and I also did not bring up the PGP75 this time. I know of one person who still uses it in our local competition. I have no comment about PGP75 also because it uses a very different type of mechanism. Heck, not just 23 months ago, but rather only one month ago did I finally learned how to shoot a semi-automatic pistol. IIRC I post little to nothing about the semi-automatic pistol.

My Gawd, he even declares the Pardini FPE to be "vaporware." How can one person learn so much in so little time?

OK I take it back, but would anyone has a FPE please post a little thread? Emil may kill me for calling the FPE vaporware if it is not true.

PS: The popular Russian pistol referred to comes from the Tula Arms Factory (Тульский оружейный завод in Russian). The third word - factory - begins with a letter which is universally rendered in English with a Z. Use of the 3 to imitate the Cyrillic is more than a little pretentious.

My Bulgarian roommate and some Eastern European friends have no problem of me using the 3. I don't have a Cyrillic keyboard and I don't feel like cut and past sometimes. I will use the з if I can afford to have a Cyrillic keyboard laptop.

Obviously, William has been monitoring me every post since post #1.
To be honest I think Larry (Freepistol) is a person who qualifies to answer this entire set of question.

conradin wrote:So the last time a major gold medal won by the TO3-35 was in the 1996 Olympics.

Now I don't profess to be an expert, but this is certainly NOT a morini and looks very much like a toz 35 to me. And of course Gourianov won gold at Fort Benning this month, with it. But that is frankly irrelevant. It's of no consequence to a person looking for advice for a starter gun.

Rob.

But it's not like a World Cup medal is considered a "major medal". Just because it is very difficult to get a slot to compete and the best shooters in the world are there doesn't mean all that much. After all, all the Chinese shooters don't go to all of them.

A TOZ is the least expensive competitive gun you will be able to find and it's good enough for a beginner or an Olympian. If you decide to move up from a world cup match to a club match, it woud probably be good enough for that as well.

If you have the money to risk (since many don't continue shooting FP due to it's difficulty and limited number of events in many locals) see what a Morini or Pardini or anything else you can get your hands on feels like. Each one will feel different to each person. Never having shot any, they may all feel the same and in that case, you can't go wrong with something used. You can get your money back on those. You will take a beating trying to sell a barely used FP compared to selling a used gun from the other international disciplines.

good luck and have fun

RobStubbs wrote:

conradin wrote:So the last time a major gold medal won by the TO3-35 was in the 1996 Olympics.

Now I don't profess to be an expert, but this is certainly NOT a morini and looks very much like a toz 35 to me. And of course Gourianov won gold at Fort Benning this month, with it. But that is frankly irrelevant. It's of no consequence to a person looking for advice for a starter gun.

Rob.

I actually did check out the pistols of the finalists. They are Toz, Morini, and the lone Walther Hammerli FP60 by Isakov. I think that should give any beginner some ideas.

Another way is simply look at the 2010 World Championship for Juniors.
The medalists used:
Morini, Toz, Morini

Speaking of which, if you check out the free pistol article on wiki, I was the one who identified all the pistols and put them on the list. I was also the one who expanded the list to include World Cup Finals.

Conradin, when you mention "Many top class competitors" I did not think of juniors but the top half of regulars at World Cups and they only shoot a toz if they think it is the best tool. And this whole thing about the only choice for a beginner is toz35 or morini since they are what what world elite shooters use is just ridiculous.

But nevertheless I will stop arguing with you since it is a waste of time discussing with someone living in another world. I can just hope that the original poster read your things with a grain of salt!

By the way, there were two Walther FP60 in the recent WC final in Benning.

ScottSimmonds wrote:

David M wrote:... but Toz parts are getting a lot harder to find.

Larrys Guns in Maine has a big supply of New/Old TOZ35s and plenty of parts. I just bought one from him a month ago - Rink grips too.

Awesome.

S

This may be so, but useless to the rest of the world when you cannot export gun parts out of the USA.

TB wrote:Conradin, when you mention "Many top class competitors" I did not think of juniors but the top half of regulars at World Cups and they only shoot a toz if they think it is the best tool. And this whole thing about the only choice for a beginner is toz35 or morini since they are what what world elite shooters use is just ridiculous.

But nevertheless I will stop arguing with you since it is a waste of time discussing with someone living in another world. I can just hope that the original poster read your things with a grain of salt!

By the way, there were two Walther FP60 in the recent WC final in Benning.

Yes, I think I was way off the topic and it does not help the original poster. You are absolutely right.
I brought up the juniors because I was trying to demonstrate that juniors can be considered as very very very good beginners who have accumulated a limited experience in terms of time span. Also if you look at the juniors some did not continue to compete because they are not good enough, or they decide to quit the sport either temporarily or permanently. I found out some decided to go to universities, including those that are gold medalists who clearly can make it to the next level. They lost interest or move on after graduation.

I did not know that there are TWO Walther Haemmerli in the WC final. I must have poor eyes. Isakov is a Walther sponsored shooter, so I think counting him is not too relevant, but if there is another person also using the FP60, then one may want to take notice.