TargetTalk

Ed raises some great points with respect to training effort; among others the issues of

- Training to your ability to deal with "imperfect situations" (ie bad sight alignment, bad trigger control, etc.). The desired outcome here being an "adaptive skill" or a "robust process" that allows you to shoot well under all kinds of bad circumstances. e.g. "Large Skills"

- Training to improve the inherent reliability/consistency/perfection of your shot process. e.g. "Small Skills"

This is different from training to develop good individual shot plans vs. the overall match management plans.

Or is it?

Heard in the faculty lounge: "Small skills, large skills, holistically, cognitive dissonance, behaviours, FTVS, meat puppets,...."

Heard on the firing line: What?

Hi Steve,

>>I feel your pain. Welcome back by the way. If the only thing my confusing BS does is to draw you out into the conversation every once in a while, it is worth the effort . . . =8^) !

Thanks Steve! I actually write a lot more responses than ever appear. But lately, I was off training, shooting some new BE highs and then getting blasted away by the weather at Camp Perry. Standing in 4 inches of water, then mud, then thicker mud made me question why I go to Camp Perry, especially when I finally had a break for .45 Slow Fire (three good targets) just to be hit by a heavy squall for the Timed Fire target. I suppose I could take up International shooting.(smile)

Sorry about that - back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

I don't think we're too far separated. Perhaps the proportions of focus are the disparities between our views. I believe we must study the little things and then move on to the bigger, sooner than my comprehension of your tastes. Yes, we should review the fundamentals from time to time, but once we have a grasp under our current level of understanding, let go of them to move to the bigger picture and let the subconscious perform.

After we have learned some more through experience, we will be ready to revisit the fundamentals to see what they mean from our new vantage point. Instead of trying to create physical steps that must be followed precisely or we fail our inspection, we should use our revisit to make the job easier for the subconscious and then praise it for performing well. All the things we try to do to align and maintain pressures, operate the trigger, stay consistent, etc. should be in an attempt to make it easier for the shot to happen. They should not be checklists to determine if we did something right or wrong. How do we really know what is right or wrong in the realm of the subconscious? I would submit that there is no right or wrong at that level. There is just action and the subconscious can be relied upon to do some pretty amazing things when we let it work out the details and just provide it with the knowledge of what we seek.

For examples, look at walking, talking, eating, etc. And, as I've mentioned before, I'm looking for the way to make shooting a ten just as natural as those other things most of us take for granted. Just as we really don't need a voice in our ear saying, "...breathe in...breathe out...," I think we can reach a level where we don't need one saying, "...align sights...settle onto target...start trigger...focus on front sight...wait..." I'm still at the voice level, but I'm searching for the next rung and I firmly believe it will be to let go of my current conscious effort and change it into, "...make a ten..."

Steve Swartz recently wrote:- Training to your ability to deal with "imperfect situations" (ie bad sight alignment, bad trigger control, etc.). The desired outcome here being an "adaptive skill" or a "robust process" that allows you to shoot well under all kinds of bad circumstances. e.g. "Large Skills"

- Training to improve the inherent reliability/consistency/perfection of your shot process. e.g. "Small Skills"

I believe you can overdo the criticism of the way the subconscious performs those "Small Skills." And, if you do, you will be stifling the capability of the subconscious to really perform.

But, then again, what do I know...

I look forward to more discussion, but my Internet connectivity might be sparse for a few days.

All comments always welcome...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Sorry Ed, but I don't believe a word of your gobble de gook about training the sub concious to shoot world record scores. IMHO you must rely on your concious active mental support to be sucessful in developing the controled technique that allows you to fire ten after ten no matter how intense the competition may become. You have indicated and described the mental process thet allows one to remain in control of him / herself during a match,.that is the emotional intensity necessary to perform at your best, Neither too tight or too lazy but just right. Next is to insure that every thing you do is done in a totally positive manner. [ then maybe you too can shoot 2680 ]Firing the shot only requires that the control factors be cooridinated to allow you to fire the shot within your limitations. I am committed to the proposition that the trigger finger must start moving before the pistol approchs the aiming area. The hold must be within the period of best control , and total focus and mental concentration must be totally involved in perfecting sight allignment at the moment the pistol fires , It would be nicer to agree but going along to get along just isn't how I am willing to play this game. What we post here must be in my opinion something that will help shooters and should avoid speculation and misinformation that may stop the progress of many of our promissing shooters . For those of you who might dissagree try Eds position and report back on your sucess. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill
You sound more like my mentor, LTC Miller, all the time. Thank you.

As a guest and reading Ed Hall and 2650 plus, let me tell you how this looks to someone who is starting out.
It would like being a beginner in a formula one car, with one instructor saying to use the gas pedal with the right foot, and another instructor advising to use the left foot.
Which way should I go? Is it possible to have two such wide apart diverse opinions? Does one system have much more support/following than the other?

Anonymous wrote:As a guest and reading Ed Hall and 2650 plus, let me tell you how this looks to someone who is starting out.
It would like being a beginner in a formula one car, with one instructor saying to use the gas pedal with the right foot, and another instructor advising to use the left foot.
Which way should I go? Is it possible to have two such wide apart diverse opinions? Does one system have much more support/following than the other?

Guest,

You reminded me of a relevant point that someone told me years ago. This person was on the US Team for years and even competed in the Olympics for the USA.

At the time, I was new to the sport and a "sponge" for information. I was reading all the books, etc. What I was really looking for was the golden path to becoming a national-class and then world-class competitor.

It soon became obvious that there were different techniques being used successfully by competitors. When I asked my friend what he did and what was "the right way to go", his response was something like "you have to try everything and then use the technique that works for you".

So, when you read through novels like this topic, keep in mind several things:

1) everyone has an opinion

2) their opinion (or recommendation) may or may not work for you

3) some folks just hate to lose an argument (or a discussion) and will keep at it forever. ;-)

Stan

There's lot of ways to shoot well. Just go watch some of the ISSF TV videos, everyone is different everyone has different routines. If you talk to them they all have different training routines. What you have to do is sort thru the info find what works for you, there's no real quick way (especially if you are self coaching) to get good. Basically it's a lot of work, including trial and error. What works for Steve, might not work for Bill, what works for Bill might not work for Ed. That said there are basics that are sound positions to start from. Another key is giving changes adequate time to be evaluated. You may also find that certain things will take you to a level and to get past it you might have to change something, which can included refinements on technique, training methods or mental preparation.

As to your F! coaching analogy, that's the reason why each driver only has one coach and they don't learn to drive an F1 car via the internet. By relying solely on the internet as a coaching resource you have to decide what is right for you, where when you have an actual coach he will decide what's right for you.

Anonymous wrote:As a guest and reading Ed Hall and 2650 plus, let me tell you how this looks to someone who is starting out.

Whether Ed, Steve or Bill are right is all a matter of conjecture. In cases like this you would normally rely on peer review, but that means review by (qualified) coaches, not shooters.

I would suggest however that someone who is starting out should not be concerned with such deep aspects. All they really need to do is learn to align the sights correctly and how to release the trigger so that it doesn't mess up that alignment.

I do realise that I am speaking as someone who has always had the benefit of an appropriately qualified coach for my shooting level at the time, and also realise that not everyone is so lucky.

We are also lucky in Europe that those who want to gain ISSF coaching qualifications can generally do so by attending ISSF Academy courses within Europe. That's where you can really get peer review, from experts in their field.

We talk about:

- how to improve the performance of a beginning shooter (several therads on that, form both a "how to coach them" to specific answers to specific questions)

all the way up to

- how does the 586 shooter shoot so many tens so consistently (again from both a coachign and individual perspective)

and everything in between.

*That* is what makes TT so valuable.

If you want to know which foot to use on the gas pedal, just ask.

But if that is your issue today- please ignore the discussions on suspension tuning for oval vs. Le Mans type tracks in various weather conditions north vs. south of the equator . . .

Steve

Some years ago, on the Bullseye-L forum, we had the same question asked. Who do I read and follow? I wrote this in reply and got the response seen following:

"The great posts recently that dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot, either physical or mental technique. You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you. One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want". After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. Jack H"

"Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - BRIAN"

Thats Brian ZINS.

I have followed and written to the Target Talk forum and Bullseye-L for several years now. My own shooting has evolved as has what I write. And so has the writing of others that I have had the pleasure to read over the years. I believe the individuals writing grows with the writers shooting skills and especially the writers shooting knowledge and curiosities. I know mine has.

Maybe we need separate sections ie Basic Pistol Techniques, Intermediate Pistol Techniques, and Advanced Pistol Techniques.

Agree with you David, unfortunately many starting out get caught up in the advanced stuff. I've had heart to heart discussions with some of my juniors regarding their focus on things that are not at their level, you need to learn to walk before you can run. My favorite is the "Neustrev doesn't dryfire so I don't have to because I don't like it." Thanks Scott for printing that interview ;) It seems to be the only thing the kids have read

It would be nice if the ISSF would run a coaching course over in the New World every 3-5 years or so, that might help the situation over here some. Its a lot of money to spend on coaching certification (just the travel and lodging alone) for a sport where few in North America get paid to coach.

Something else Brian Zins said on the Bullseye forum has really stuck with me. There was a simple question posed as to what the biggest problem to shooting well was. He came back with a one-word answer:

anticipation

That certainly is my experience (if I had to pick ONE thing). No, I'm not a great shot. Strictly middle of the pack. But if can either:

1) get a complete surprise break, or
2) stay so calm and focused that I have no desire to anticipate the shot

then I can shoot well. If I anticipate the shot I'm basically screwed.

So far I can only do it about half the time. Sigh.

Some folks have characterized the "don't anticipate" thing as a variation of

- Sit back and let the trigger pull itself
- Follow through starts when you pick up the gun
- Don't get in the way of the trigger/shot
- Settle, align, and clear your head
- etc.

This is probably a simpler way of thinking about the notion of "subconscious control" than any other I can think of.

This whole idea actually explains the whole "surprise break" and "tens are way easier to shoot than nines" concepts.

As long as your fundamentals are solid (settle, align, perfect trigger manipulation) all you need to do is just get the heck out of the way of the shot . . .

Yeah, so true. I pay as much or more attention to my emotional state as I do to my physical technique. And the emotions (and corresponding tiny muscle twitch) that create the flyer can occur in the last fraction of a second as the shot breaks, so that sense of zen calm has to persist all the way through the shot.

While the complete surprise break can certainly result in a really good shot, I don't find it as consistent, and certainly not as satisfying as the "controlled surprise break" -- where the shot breaks as a mild surprise to your conscious mind but is performed under calm control by your subconscious. And the two are tied together -- you can consciously control your emotional state. I lack the self-esteem and self-confidence to do it reliably -- at this point! I'm working on it. Some days I have to settle for the complete surprise break.

I really wish we could get Bryan and Hershel Anderson to post an explanation of how they prepare and deliver the shot on target.Quotes of Bryan Zins agreeing with another shooter may be only agreeing in order to terminate the discussion. I have been guilty of that many times in the past when I was concentrating on forcing my self to lock in on the method I was using at the time. I avoided listning to another concept just before matches because of the danger of the different concept interfeering with my own thoughts and sequence.Simplify, Simplify, Simplify, At least Ed and I agree on that. It should be easy to fire a solid shot into the ten ring . Good Shooting Bill Horton [ Non shooting coaches are free to propose all sorts of approches in the lounge but what are the champions discussing ? ]

Now *that's* funny.

2650 Plus wrote: [ Non shooting coaches are free to propose all sorts of approches in the lounge but what are the champions discussing ? ]

Even if they were talking probably wouldn't be able to understand them very well because they english wouldn't be their first language.

Good point Richard.

I am curious about the concept of "non-shooting coaches" who hang out in "lounges" though.

I've never actually met one . . . I'm not saying they don't exist (I have never seen a Unicorn or an actual "Straw man" either) but I wonder what Bill's/Jack's/Bryan's point is . . .

And, more importantly, how that helps *anyone* shoot better . . .

But here's another couple of templates (these are used for planning your training effort monthly and to help focus during an individual session) for anyone who is actually interested in improving their performance.

As always, Your Mileage May Vary.

Second template