TargetTalk

PED 97/23/EC

Annex 1 Article 1 (1)
Article 1 (2.3)
Article 1 (2.5)
Annex 3,. 1.1

What you will find after digesting this is your answer...... Pay special attention to tbe 10 year record keeping requirements for cylindersdesigned without dedicated internal condition inspection access.

Also, DOT regs are not applicable as DOT regs point to the PED for European designed equipment

To Gwhite, I havent read your succinct answer, would you please pm it to me, I looked at your post and cant find it.....

Thanks Spektr.

Rover asked: "Is there no one out there who can/will rebuild these orphans?"

I replied "NO". As in "there is no one out there who will rebuild them"

I will dig through the regs you cited later. I'll be curious if they have a date that matches the ISSF rules change. The DOT didn't refer to the PED when I checked this out a number of years ago. At least not that I saw.

As far as I know, Morini (at least) was making cylinders certified for 20 years up until the ISSF rule change, so if the PED now prohibits that, the ISSF may have changed the rules in response to changes in the PED.

Gwhite...... The PED is the commandbmedia on all pressure vessels having a CE stamp...... Ciao

Rover wrote:but I still haven't received an answer.

I have the answer, it's Roger Rumpelstiltskin...

I'm only postulating here: the ISSF headquarters is in Germany, so what ever laws are in force in Germany apply to the ISSF regulations.
I'm now not postulating: aluminum alloys (of which most cylinders are made) can develop microscopic fractures from mechanical stress leading to (catastophic) failure (not leakage). Even if you could examine the internal surfaces of an aluminum tank, you might not detect the remaining strength of the cylinder. In a piece of glass, you can see fractures visually because there is a reflection of light along the fracture. You can detect fractures in aluminum alloys with ultrasonic sound because there is a reflection along the fracture. Unfortunately, this process is practical for large (very expensive) parts like wings of aircraft, but for air gun cylinders it is probably not an option yet. It could be, but you might end up paying more for the testing than a replacement air cylinder. It would probably be much more practical to have manufacturers use standard size cylinders with standard fittings.
Hammerli and Morini made cylinders which those companies had faith in for twenty years, but those companies were not in Germany, so they didn't have to conform with German laws.
New cylinders for a number of the popular old CO2 and PCP guns are made today by Prelutec in Germany.
Maybe a brave cottage industry could be set up here to make generic cylinders with special fittings for various airguns models.

Simple solution is to go back to single stroke pump guns. LOL

stephen_maly wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:45 pm I'm only postulating here: the ISSF headquarters is in Germany, so what ever laws are in force in Germany apply to the ISSF regulations.

Hammerli and Morini made cylinders which those companies had faith in for twenty years, but those companies were not in Germany, so they didn't have to conform with German laws.

Stephen.
The European Pressure Vessel Regulators that allow you to affix a CE stamp work to the same rules irrespective of the location of the manufacturer of the cylinder or the ISSF for that matter. The revision to the PV laws end-lifed cylinders in our size class at 10 years due to issues in the maritime industry. We were caught up in that revision and because we have an uninspectable product, we were handled the same way.

if you go up the thread a bit, the laws are referrenced if you like to dig thru this....

Just out of curiosity - is anyone aware of cases where an AP or AR cylinder actually had a catastrophic failure? (i.e., exploded)?

I believe an Anschutz rifle cylinder failed quite a few years ago, but I don't know the details. Morini had a cylinder recall (for inspection) about a year ago after a cylinder failed. Apparently the owner had use chlorinated solvents on it, which attacked & weakened the cylinder. As far as we know, none of the cylinders Morini had returned for inspection showed any signs of problems.

OMG, a change that was made YEARS ago and people are still bitching...

dronning wrote:I mean if your filling your AP tank once a day verses the guy that fills it once or twice a week why are they both bad after 10 years??
- Dave

Even if you can expect cylinders the end-of-life is identical for a cylinder that never gets used vs. a cylinder that get fully charged and discharged multiple times every day. The hydrostatic testing of SCUBA is done every 5 years, some tanks every 3 years, and fiber wrapped tanks are all limited to 15 years.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:32 pm It isn't, because before the ISSF came out with the 10 year rule, several manufacturers rated their cylinders for 20 years, including Morini & Hammerli.

Wish people would stop spreading this as a reason to complain. Morini & Hammerli & others didn't rate their cylinders for 20 years. They were permitted/licenced and monitored by the relevant certification authorities to produce cylinders meeting the rules at the time of manufacture. The rules changed, no manufacturer can go against the rules.

Rover wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:44 am Now the count is fifteen with no answer.

I seem to remember that the issue about out dated air-cylinders was discussed earlier. Over aged cylinders can be tested again as is done with scuba cylinders. However the cost of testing would be higher than the price a new cylinder...
The decrease from 20 to 10 years is a result op a European law that was voted on the demand of Germany.
What happens to the "old" cylinders: as far as I could trace they go to the scrap yard. As David mentioned: no-one will take the risk of an accident with an out dated cylinder.
Best regards.
Guy

I literally rolled on the floor laughing with John Bickar's response to Rover. John I owe you a steak dinner the next time I see you , that was hilarious.

All the more funny since Rover is usually the one slapping people around for asking the whats the best pellet question that's been answered a dozen times, and then Rover is asking a similar redundant question.

For the Umpteenth time.

if you add up the cost of the 9 visual inspections and 2 hydro test that are required for your SCUBA tank in a 10 year period you will see that equals or exceeds the cost to buy a new cylinder in 10 years.
PLUS, A SCUBA tank is simple tank that requires only a rubber mallet to disassemble. An airgun cylinder requires special tooling for BOTH ends to disassemble, plus the much more complicated valving in the oone one end and manometer on the other. if you prorated these issues compared to you what you pay for the 9 visuals and 2 hydros, I bet you would be looking at $500 for each cylinder.

Buying a new cylinder every 10 years is cheap, cost effective management of a real safety issue.

I have had good success repairing leaking air cylinders. So far a little o-ring did the job. Most of my air gauge leaks where also just an o-ring seal. The tricky part is getting the glan off the barrel. I just repaired one for a rifle dated 2003. It was a bear getting off. Once off it was a simple and quick repair. I have a Morini air pistol cylinder next on list.
I keep on hand a wide assortment of metric o-rings.
A local hydraulics repair shop should be able to do the repair.
A side note, these cylinders if not abused will last for decades.

Issue us not repairing them, but certifying them and owning the liability if one has a catastrophic failure, which we know are few and far between.

I have had good success repairing leaking air cylinders. So far a little o-ring did the job. Most of my air gauge leaks where also just an o-ring seal. The tricky part is getting the glan off the barrel. I just repaired one for a rifle dated 2003. It was a bear getting off. Once off it was a simple and quick repair. I have a Morini air pistol cylinder next on list.
I keep on hand a wide assortment of metric o-rings.
A local hydraulics repair shop should be able to do the repair.
A side note, these cylinders if not abused will last for decades.

AT LAST!!!