ISSF Rapid Fire pistol: New rules from 2005 - official

[bjornar]

Quoted from the site of European Shooting Federation:
"Specific Rules for the 25m Rapid Fire Pistol Event Targets: No change Program: No change Pistol: All measurements and weights as described in 8.16.0 for 25 m Rim Fire Pistols (25m Pistol and Standard Pistol) are valid without any exceptions (compensators, muzzle brakes, perforated barrels or any device(s) functioning in a similar manner are not allowed). Ammunition: 5,6 mm (.22”) Rim fire Long Rifle For the Rapid Fire Pistol Event: Minimum bullet weight 2.53g = 39gr; Minimum velocity 250m/sec. Malfunction In Rapid Fire Pistol, Standard Pistol, 25 m Pistol Women only one (1) allowable malfunction is permitted. "

[cedarcreek]

I've been looking for some discussion about this "no change pistol" rule. Isn't the new rule completely different? Look, I don't shoot rapid fire, but I'm going to someday. I don't think this rule will have any effect in increasing attendance at rapid fire matches.

If the intent of the rule is to decrease the "start-up" cost of shooting rapid fire, they are being intensely naive: The effect of this rule change will be to force serious shooters to own two "standard pistols", one for rapid fire and one for everything else. I may be cynical, but I know that the mindset is to go for every possible advantage. If that requires extensive modifications within the "standard pistol rules" for grip and trigger pull (my guesses), then the serious shooters will do it.

I think they should have left things alone, and just split the competitors into two classes: unlimited, where all the competitors would compete, and standard, where only pistols meeting standard specs would compete. That way standard shooters would be judged as a group, but if they happened to also place in unlimited, then they could receive awards in both classes.

By looking at match results, this would offer real, hard data that would allow rule makers and competitors to fine tune the rules. I have not heard any of the discussions leading up to this ruling, which is part of my problem, I'm sure, but this smells like a ruling based on what people think they know, rather than on hard data.

One last thing. I said I am not a rapid fire shooter. That's true. But I am serious about it. Not one month ago, on a business trip, I stopped to look at a new rapid fire gun. My problem is that there is no one around to compete against, and no existing rapid fire ranges anywhere near here. I've been making plans to put together a makeshift range on a relative's farm, and to get a local club to modify their range. (One of my rules for new hobbies is to look at what competitive opportunities exist, and to try to shape my interests so I can have a network of other interested people nearby. For rapid fire, I was so interested that I was willing to press through the lack of both a network and of competitive opportunities.)

Matthew
Cincinnati, Ohio USA

[David Levene]

I've been looking for some discussion about this "no change pistol" rule. Isn't the new rule completely different?

The initial posting on this thread lost the formatting (and with it the meaning) when being copied. It makes more sense if you read it as:-

Targets: No change
Program: No change
Pistol: All measurements and weights as described ................

If you want to see the original document look at Major ISSF Rule Changes For 2005

[cedarcreek]

IMO, there have been two major issues keeping USA shooters out of RF. One has been the special-purpose RF 22 short pistol. Basically, it was good for nothing else but ISSF RF. Since that pistol will be history soon, that impediment is gone.

I think your logic is flawed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there really is no requirement to use a "special-purpose" pistol. Won't most standard pistols meet all the requirements of the RF rules? Anyone with a standard pistol can shoot Rapid Fire.

Your second point is much more true, although there really is a chicken-and-egg issue here. What is needed is a community of rapid-fire shooters who can create a recurring competitive atmosphere at the various ranges.

I have been away from shooting for several years, so I haven't looked at my rulebook for awhile: Are turning targets no longer needed? I was under the impression that the largest events went to stationary targets with a green light-red light indicator. If that's true, the the cost of a rudimentary range for practice goes away. With five correctly-spaced targets and a shot timer from the practical shooters, you can get a range that allows small numbers of shooters to compete.

But I stand by my support of the current gun. Changes like this force people who have already spent a lot of money to spend more.

Matthew
Cincinnati, Ohio USA

[David Levene]

I think your logic is flawed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there really is no requirement to use a "special-purpose" pistol. Won't most standard pistols meet all the requirements of the RF rules? Anyone with a standard pistol can shoot Rapid Fire.

True, the same as anyone with a standard pistol can shoot Free Pistol (sorry, 50m Pistol). It isn't much fun though when you know that you are starting a match with a terrific disadvantage against shooters of similar ability.

[Chris]

The stationary targets are a result of electronic targets. Turning targets are still required at clubs where funding is not available go to electronics.

Even if audible timers or lights are used you will never have the ability to determine a late shot. At best it would be a judgement call and while most people can say it does not matter there is always that person that you will never please and will make sure that the rules are followed.

[Tycho]

a) I may be wrong, but I think that stationary targets are allowed even under ISSF rules. I sure remember stories of older shooters from WorldCups in Sri Lanka or so, where they used stationary targets and whistles. Beside that, I'd think it was no big deal to put 5 targets 75 cm apart at 25m.

b) I can guarantee you that no competitive shooter is going to use the same pistol for SP and RFP, although both guns may follow the same rulebook. 4 sec with the .22LR is possible - with a modified trigger. You try to shoot 4 sec with a crisp, dry letoff, and you will a) kill your trigger and b) not be able to hit a barndoor at 10m in precision anymore. We are currently trying out some solutions to the 4 sec problem, and it seems that a perfectly balanced and rather heavy pistol, a VERY tight grip and a short roll-over-trigger are the way to go, and we are already planning for additional recoil absorbers and electronic triggers.

I'm still of the opinion that RFP is a question of mindset, and not of hardware. No shooter who liked RFP was stopped by the need for a .22 short pistol. No shooter who already hates the sport pistol rapid fire stage is going to shoot RFP just because he can. Try to sell people the idea that they can use their SP for 4sec/5 targets - when the 10 sec stage of SP already looks fast to them. They'll tell you where to put that idea. I hear that the german junior national teams are already back in the 580's, but a "normal" shooter will have even less chance to get there on a good day than before, so the top will stay top, and the rest has a problem. You think this a good solution?

[sparky]

Stan Pace is right. Lots of NRA bullseye types are more likely to get involved if they can be competitive with their sport pistols. Heck, I'm one of the guys who tried it against people with dedicated .22short RF guns; there was no way I was going to buy a GPE or OSP for only one sport. But since I already had a Pardini SP that was good for Standard Pistol and Bullseye, it was an easy decision to try something new.

Oh, and 4 sec. IS definitely do-able with a .22lr. So the scores for top shooters might drop from 590 to 570-580...BFD. Wasn't it getting too easy for the top shooters anyway?

I think people whine too much about turning targets and such. Give me a break. If you really want to shoot, you can make the compromise and shoot on stationary targets with a shot timer. The timers that IPSC shooters have been using for well over a decade are perfect for shooting rapid fire on stationary targets and CAN RECORD OVERTIME SHOTS!!! (yeah, some genious thought it would be a good idea to hook a mike up to a timer...go figure). Some of them even have provisions for setting up a visual start signal (1,2,3...ooooohhhh...). And they're relatively cheap; anywhere from $45-125 depending on how many features you want (aaaaahhhhh!!!)

To sum it up:
Turning target system = $1000+/per bay, and it can be PITA to move/disassemble.
Stationary targets with IPSC-style shot timer = $70/bay (or just share!), very easy to pack up when you want to shoot something other than RF.

If you're really that dedicated to looking for reasons why you CAN'T shoot Rapid Fire, don't bother.
The way I see it, you can either try to make it happen (even if means shooting on stationary targets...GASP!) and have fun, or you can choose not to. But inventing artificial reasons for why it can't be done is absolutely pointless.

The stationary targets are a result of electronic targets. Turning targets are still required at clubs where funding is not available go to electronics.

Even if audible timers or lights are used you will never have the ability to determine a late shot. At best it would be a judgement call and while most people can say it does not matter there is always that person that you will never please and will make sure that the rules are followed.

[Reinhamre]

Hi,
Excuse me for saying this, but have you not forget one major factor?
The .22 Short ammo will cost 3 times more than .22LR; it was too expensive in manufacturing

Okay, the trigger can be changed a bit to your liking but basically it is a standard pistol.

My OSP is worth nothing but cést la vie.

Kent

[Alex F.]

Hey Sparky, where can I get one of those super duper timers? As someone who decided to get back into RF before I knew about the new rules, I'm going to need one.

[race1911]

I agree with Sparky on thesimplicity and multi function uses of IPSC type timers.........a good example is the "speedtimer 3000" ..........lightweight (can even have a wrist pouch to hold it in), plenty loud enough even for double ear protection. hasa delay function so you can set and then shoot, par time easily set from 0-10seconds, and will tell overtime shots..........there really is no need for expensive turning type targets when these timers will serve the intended purposes..........also, I was one of the unfortunate few who will have to go out and buy a new pistol for rapid fire as the two osp's I just bought about three months ago are now useless.............see me at Canadian Pistol Championships next year in Saskatchewan (after this broken arm I have now heals)...........have fun shooting guys!

[sparky]

Looks like the price of new times has gone up since I last got one. They seem to start at around $100 and go up from there depending on features...still a lot cheaper than turning targets. Here are links to some of the major IPSC timers. The first link an article reviewing a few.

http://www.sportshooter.com/gear/rev_timers.htm

http://www.cedhk.com/show.php/Object518

http://www.pact.com/cgi-bin/store/comme ... uct=timers

http://www.speedtimers.com/shooting_speed_timers2.htm

http://www.competitionelectronics.com/m ... ochure.pdf

[David Levene]

..........also, I was one of the unfortunate few who will have to go out and buy a new pistol for rapid fire as the two osp's I just bought about three months ago are now useless.............

But it was known that the ISSF were hoping to move to Standard Pistols for Rapid well over a year ago. See Report of ISSF Executive Meeting - May 2003

From memory, this subject was extensively discussed on TT at that time.

I know that it wasn't finally signed and sealed until recently but the writing really was on the wall 15 months ago.

[race1911]

As you know, if you are going to be competitive and you are getting into a new shooting sport you check out what firearms are widely used by the local and top shooters........osp's were among those I had most access to and therefore to enjoy shooting thesport I went ahead and bought 2 used ones (couldn't figure which was best...onewas older but it seemed to fit my hand better and the trigger wasway better as was)...........even though the "writing was on the wall" as you say, I was hoping they wouldn't just make the existing pistols obsolete and if they were going to go ahead with the proposed changes would take into consideration making a separate division or class for the existing ones people already involved in the sport had invested monetarily and practice with............I guess it's unfortunate that those making the rules sometimes are not involved enough to make practical decisions, just educated guesses without seeing all the implications

[David M]

The changes to Rapidfire came about following the debacle at the last World championships when a massive number of malfunctions on the line saw the match extend and delay to a unacceptable level. At the same time, the Womens Sport pistol had minimal malfunctions with the .22 longs.
Add to this the difficulties in getting good quality short ammo (been difficult for 4-5 years since Lapua,Ficcohi and Eley stopped making it) and the slow sales of new Rapidfire pistols worldwide, it all added up to a time for a change.
But the major reason for change, for the ISSF was the World championships.
The Technical comittee put up the proposed changes, some alterations done, and volia, we have the new rules.
I believe you can have only one .22 pistol and still be competitive as long as you are careful in how you set it up (trigger setup and weight/balance).
Origionally the perfomance was going to be the main factor, grip, trigger, balance, and shot recovery.
Now having seen the final draft of the new rules, the malfunction rule has a new importance, the high priority must now be reliability with performance secondary, because the a malfunctioning pistol will cost you the match.
I am shooting within 15-20 points with the longs, and expect that with development within 12 months the scores will be about the same.

[Bruce f]

The changes to Rapidfire came about following the debacle at the last World championships when a massive number of malfunctions on the line saw the match extend and delay to a unacceptable level. At the same time, the Womens Sport pistol had minimal malfunctions with the .22 longs.
.

Lets just clear one thing up here - I was actually at that World Championship competition (unlike some...) - there were NOT a massive number of malfunctions caused by .22 short ammo - I can only recall seeing 2 reshoots in any single detail of 12 shooters. The delays were caused by the running of the competition. The start of my detail was delayed by 20 minutes due to rain - why? Is it in the rules that you can just wait until the conditions suit ? I don't think so... It is the 'officials' fluffing around that causes the delays.

Lets do the maths assuming 'electronic scoring' as per the World Champs.
3 Min prep, 3 min sighters (assuming there is a malfunction + reshoot), 1 min load x 7 (6 series + sighters), 7 x 15sec for series (Attention, 3,2,1 start then actual series time) then 1 min pause before next series x 6 = 23 minutes. Even allowing maximium number of reshoots per time series (2 each) this only takes it up to 37 minutes maximium. (I have never seen 2 reshoots in each time series in my 25 years of Rapid Fire shooting) Anything over this is wasted time! This maximium time should cater for 3 to 30 shooters, less for 2 shooters as they can not use all the malfunctions in each time series. It is not rocket science....

By the way, in the second relay of the Womens Sport Pistol Precision at the same World Champs, it took 45 minutes from starting preparation time to the firing of the first competition shot - nothing to do with malfunctions here....