TargetTalk

Hello, I am a completely fresh pistol shooter, and I have got my hands on an air pistol (hämmerli AP20 Pro). I have some questions about cant and grips, see pictures and question below.

When I grip the air pistol and hold it up to a position of "natural point of aim" where my arm is stretched out and I "relax" / "don't strain" my arm and muscles - especially the wrist, the front sights are off in the left direction (and slightly above). I believe this is called "cant" (?). By flexing my outer wrist, I can align the sights and aim at the target. It is of course much more difficult to keep the sights aligned in this position.

Is it normal to get grips that can be rotated to correct cant like this? Or is it expected to train my wrist-strength to compensate? I would intuitively think that a more natural hand position would be beneficial. I suppose the grip might also be a bit too large for my hand, but I don't think a smaller grip would alleviate the problem entirely.


Some backstory: prior to aquiring the pistol I just read the book "Master Competitive Pistol Shooting" (2016 edition). It had a lot of great information – and I find myself re-reading parts repeatedly as I try to carry out the techniques and advice there in practice with the actual pistol. I did unfortunately find it a little bit lacking in the nitty gritty details of how the grip should feel.

I have spent a few hours searching online, and across this forum and youtube, but I am unable to find good results. Perhaps I am unfamiliar with the shooting vocabulary.

I hope you can help a new shooter out with his confusion.

Image: natural point of aim viewpoint for me


Image: me flexing the outer-wrist to bring the front and rear sights to proper alignment.

On some models this can be adjusted. The AP20pro appears to have the same grip mounting system as the LP500. Slightly loosen the bottom grip screw and you should be able to rotate the grip and tighten it again.

Eventually any grip should customized with a dremel and putty. At which point I try to make it so my natural aim is centered in the "neutral" grip position and I can use the guns fine adjustments in both directions.

Grippy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 12:28 pm
Eventually any grip should customized with a dremel and putty. At which point I try to make it so my natural aim is centered in the "neutral" grip position and I can use the guns fine adjustments in both directions.

Thank you for your reply. I take it that my assumption is correct then: namely the natural point of aim position should correspond to correctly aligned sights.

I will look into dremel and putty I will also play around more with the grip and the screws. It does have room for adjustments, but not very much.

In looking at the photos, it looks like there is a gap between the side of the heel of the hand and the inside of the grip. Shooting well is all about consistency. Gaps are bad for that. You either need to rotate your hand so you have repeatable contact there, or add putty or some filler (like moleskin) to fill that gap. Ideally, the barrel should line up (roughly) with your arm. If you have to rotate your hand counterclockwise to reach the trigger well, you need to move the trigger back and un-rotate your hand.

The physical features of the grip act as "indexing" points to allow a repeatable grip. Use your non-shooting hand to seat the pistol into your shooting hand, don't just reach down & pick it up. You can work on this at home, without even dry firing. Just practice grasping the pistol over & over again until it always sits in the exact same place & orientation. Until you can do that, dramatically modifying your grip is a waste of time. Temporary fillers in any gaps will get you to a good starting point for further refinements.

watch this video about how to grip the pistol. it;s in german but it has english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDP8ghY7uoM

We all have different anatomies.

I also have a tendency to cant to the left and correct it by paying attention to my sensations to rotate it to the right place.

This happens also with a personalized grip.

It is just a question of paying a little attention and correcting it.

I would worry more about sight alignment, trigger execution and wrist lock.

I've never been able to do the perfect hold with eyes closed exercises.

Do a search for "natural point of aim" here on TT. You seem to be mis-using the term.

Hi runescape

Watch this frist:

Azmodan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 1:34 am watch this video about how to grip the pistol. it;s in german but it has english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDP8ghY7uoM

His site, has a lot of useful tips on how to modify your grip. https://www.formgriffe.de/en/Infos/to-s ... p-forming/

Second, the grip is to large for your hand. Try to find a smaller one before you start modifying it.

Third, read the rules before you start modifying it:
https://backoffice.issf-sports.org/getf ... ersion.pdf

8.12 ) 10m Air Pistol Grips: No part of the grip, frame or accessories may touch any part of the wrist. The heel rest must extend at an angle of not less
than 90 degrees to the grip. This applies to the heel rest in front and behind the grip as well as on the sides.
Any upward curvature of the heel and/or thumb rest and/or a downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb is prohibited. The thumb rest must
allow free upward movement of the thumb. The grip must not encircle the hand. Curved surfaces on the grips or frame, including the heel and/or
thumb rest, in the longitudinal direction of the pistol are permitted.
Although this image is for 25m pistol, it gives you an idea of what your aiming for in terms of griping a pistol. Hope this helps

Thank you all for the great feedback! I had a suspicion the grip was a little large as well. I will order a smaller grip from my local shop.

And I will make sure to check out all the resources linked. I'm surprised by how many small intricacies there are to this sport, but I find it intruiging.

Also sorry for any mis-use of terminology.

Hi Runescape,I have to ask; what is your dominant eye; Left or Right eye? I'm cross dominant, left eye - right handed.
Your first photo is an exaggerated view of what I saw until I started buying grips with a seven degree offset.
When I first started shooting Bullseye in the early 1970's, there weren't offset grips that I knew of. So, I had to swing
my arm until the sights were aligned and then pivot my feet right or left to align the pistol with the target.
there are lots of great advise here, You'll be fine. Tony G.

BTW I don't believe that there is a "natural point of aim", though many here do.

If you think your grip is too fat, buy sandpaper.

Sprocky wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:47 pm Hi Runescape,I have to ask; what is your dominant eye; Left or Right eye? I'm cross dominant, left eye - right handed.
Your first photo is an exaggerated view of what I saw until I started buying grips with a seven degree offset.
When I first started shooting Bullseye in the early 1970's, there weren't offset grips that I knew of. So, I had to swing
my arm until the sights were aligned and then pivot my feet right or left to align the pistol with the target.
there are lots of great advise here, You'll be fine. Tony G.

I am right eye dominant. The picture was representative of what I have been seeing somewhat consistently.

Since I posted I have adjusted the grip as much as it can be adjusted towards the right. Along with attempting to grip the gun differently from what I was doing, and the midalignment of the sights is less severe than it was to begin with.

I also noticed that moving my head around (obviously) affects the sight alignment. But my book informed that the neck should not be tense (makes sense to me). So I guess I have plenty of hours of practicing stance, from my feet all the way to the neck as well. To find a comfortbale and correctly angled stance.

I am still convinced the grip is too large, as my hand cannot even reach the palm rest when it is adjusted to the narrowest position, so I think a size smaller is in order before I start playing around with any sandpaper/drummel / putty.

I actually have a more adjustable grip and gun on order, but the delivery time is quite long (5-6 months), so I picked up my current gun as I wanted to get into the sport and learn the basics. I haven’t shot the gun yet, and don’t plan on it until I have my stance and grip in order.

Viewed from above your hand is twisted anti-clockwise around the grip, from the rear your wrist/heel is offset to the right.

Your wrist/heel should be pushed to the left, so there is no gap between your heel and the grip as shown in the first picture, your thumb should point directly at the target - usually this means your wrist will be slightly left of the axis of the gun.
Get this right, then adjust the trigger to suit your trigger finger.

The grip looks a little large but its a start, you can always add filler.

I'll see if I can post some pics later.

What is the angle of your feet/hips in relationship to the target? I had a fellow shooter who stood almost 45 degrees to the target and with the orthopedic grips he would have to flex his wrists. If you stand 10 degrees or less in relation to the target you may not have to flex your wrist.

elbthesurfer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:22 am What is the angle of your feet/hips in relationship to the target? I had a fellow shooter who stood almost 45 degrees to the target and with the orthopedic grips he would have to flex his wrists. If you stand 10 degrees or less in relation to the target you may not have to flex your wrist.

I had not thought about the relationship between the angle of the feet with regards to the target, and sight-alignment. I will double check this today.

I have yet not practiced stance very much. I have read I need to practice stance a lot so that I will be able to take up the exact same stance everytime all subconsciously. The same with grip.

I think it is good to iron out all these things before I begin building habits that can be hard to undo. That is why I am trying to do things right from the get go. All the responses on this forum is helpful to me.

"I have yet not practiced stance very much. I have read I need to practice stance a lot so that I will be able to take up the exact same stance every time all subconsciously."

I have seen morons squat down and draw around their feet so they might resume exactly the same stance. It doesn't work! Your stance will change as you relax and "work" your body. That's one reason I say there is NO NPA (for pistol). Just relax and see where your pistol points; then adjust.

I think you're getting too finicky. Work on one thing at a time.

RE: Your grips. Get out the putty and file. Make them fit you, otherwise you really don't have a clue as to what's going on. You can't buy points.

Rover wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:23 am
I have seen morons squat down and draw around their feet so they might resume exactly the same stance. It doesn't work! Your stance will change as you relax and "work" your body. That's one reason I say there is NO NPA (for pistol). Just relax and see where your pistol points; then adjust.

Rover:

I beg to differ. I agree with you that taking a stance when starting a match or training session and trying to keep it in spite of what the body tells us is a mistake. I was subjected to that method very long ago when I started, it was very common "knowledge". Time and better teachers told me the errors of this way.

But that doesn't mean that THERE IS NO NPA. There always is, only that it changes for the same reasons you deny its existence.

There will always be a stance where our body finds itself more comfortable or stable, and that is the NPA, notwithstanding the fact the shooter should need to modify it after 20 shots. That change will be the search for the new NPA the body demands.

Have a tall frosty one before chastising me for contradicting!!!!

Well, there's this:

https://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=68826