newbie 10 m air rifle advice

[B. Bowen]

I am looking for and air rifle for 10m shooting that won't break my little bank. I primarily shoot high power but with the birth of my son and working night shift I don't have much time for practice. Besides it seems that all of the really great shooters shoot smallbre and air rifles. would like to spend $300 or less, cosidering a daisy, chinese model, or a used rifle. any suggestions or sources to buy? Thanks for the help!

billandnikki-at-charter.net.44963.0

[pdeal]

I'd recommend you look for a used Tau 200. They generally go for about that used and are very nice for the price. A guy has one advertised here: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/79574
.44967.44963

[Joe Matusic, MD]

First, should ask what you intend to do with the gun. 10m work, general plinking, keeping up skills off season or improving them with the airgun.
For 10m: Daisy has a nice series of single stroke pneumatics (75x and 85x series) for well under $300 (I think most under $200). They are very accurate trainers. The sponsor of this site sells them at competitive prices. Another consideration is a used 10m rifle like a used Chinese SS4 (chinese copy of FWB 300s) You might occasionally find a used 10m rifle in that price range (FWB 300s, Anshutz 250/333, Walther LGR/LGV), but they are generally sold in the $350-$500 range. One caution about the Tau is that it is a co2 gun and won't wrok under 65 degrees outside in the winter.
For general plinking: pretty much anything, but I especially like the IZH-61. Russian made 10m trainer for kids although can be used by adults. The stock adjusts for pull length. 5 shot repeater spring piston. Extremely accurate and fun considering the <$100 price range new. Great trigger.
Keeping up or improving skills: I have read alot that spring piston guns (and most airguns anyway) help rifle shooters improve their scores in the following way: the recoil from an airgun is both forward and backward rather than only one way in a rifle. The lock time (time from pulling trigger to pellet leaving the gun) is considerably longer in an airgun, therefore you must hold on target or predict the shot much better than in a rifle. If you become proficient in an airgun, you should improve your rifle shooting scores.
In my case, I liked shooting airguns more since I can shoot way more in my backyard than I ever did on the range and don't have to travel 45 minutes each way to the range. Airguns are generally more accurate than rifles and $8 for 500 shots of the best pellets can't be beat.

Joe.Matusic-at-Camc.org.44968.44967

[Mark.]

Although Dr. Joe has been involved in the airgun scene for a lot longer than I have been, I have to refute his following statement:
"One caution about the Tau is that it is a co2 gun and won't wrok under 65 degrees outside in the winter."
Our local airgun range is virtually an outdoor range - concrete floor pad with a glorified tent erected on it. No heat whatsoever. Indoor temperature is the same as the outdoor temperature, but at least we get a break from the wind.
Last night was our most recent practice session in this "indoor outdoor" range. We had both rifle and pistol shooters in attendance, shooting compressed air and CO2 guns (yes, even a CO2 Feinwerkbau rifle and a TAU-7 pistol). There were absolutely no malfunctions with any of the guns. Temperature inside the range was 5 degrees celsius, which converts to 41 degrees F. Since even the TAU-7 worked well, and it's internals are pretty much identical to the TAU-200 rifle, I'd have to wager that under similar conditions the TAU-200 (or any other Co2 rifle) would work well. The only things that froze up were the shooters themselves!
From personal experience I can say that I've shot my Co2 powered pistols at temperatures very near to freezing and have had no difficulties.
Joe's comments about the economics of airgun shooting are right on. I shoot both air pistol and free pistol competitively, and free pistol costs somewhere between 10 and 100 times more to shoot (depending on range fees). You just can't beat airguns as a means of honing your skills, and having fun!

Mark.
.44973.44968

[Joe Matusic, MD]

I have several co2 guns and always heard that they don't work under 65 degrees, or perhaps that was that they work eratically. Almost all co2 guns work by the pressure of the co2 over the gas. The one known exception is the new Winchester level action which uses the liquid co2. So long as you have liquid co2 under the gas, the pressure should remain constant for that temperature. The temperature of the gas (ie ambient local temperature) affects the pressure of the gas. Therefore when changing temperatures, the gas pressure changes and therefore the point of impact for the pellet should change. THis is not true for PCP guns and why I much prefer PCP. Also the balance of the co2 guns could change as the liquid is spent, while this is not true for PCP guns. I have heard several comments over the years regarding this, but honestly have not tested the idea of a CO2 gun not working below a certain temperature myself. I have shot my PPKS rapid fire and noticed that the bb speed dramatically drops as the co2 cylinder freezes over with rapid fire.

Joe.Matusic-at-Camc.org.44980.44973

[Mark.]

As always, you've raised some interesting points, Dr. Joe!
The conversion of liquid Co2 to gas occurs at a constant pressure (I believe it's referred to as vapour pressure). But it's not really all that constant, as you've pointed out. It is a function of ambient pressure and temperature, so velocity is ultimately going to be changed by temperature changes.
That having been said, I don't change my sights on my LP-1 as I move from my heated basement to the unheated range. The lighting differences in the two ranges seems to have a greater influence on point of impact than does temperature. Or at least that's my excuse for the moment! ;-)
One thing that's always interesting to note is the cloud of Co2 released on firing. On those hot, humid days you can really see it, but it's barely noticeable in dry, cold winter air. Since I like to use the "cloud" as a judge of how good my sight focus was, I miss that little cue in cold-weather shooting. (Yup, another excuse, but I'm stickin' to it!)

Cheers,
Mark.
.45000.44980

[Dan]

: I have several co2 guns and always heard that they don't work under 65 degrees, or perhaps that was that they work eratically.
[...]
FWIW, the manual for my FWB C60 states "Optimal shooting efficiency with the rifle Model C60 is given within the temperature of +5C until +30C."
.45003.44980

[pdeal]

Mark: As you say, the vapor pressure does increase with temperature so you'd think that velocity would increase with temp. One thing that also comes into play is that with higher vapor pressure there is more back pressure on the firing valve. This, I think, tends to cause a self regulation since with pressure the valve stays open less time. While I am sure that compressed air with a good regulator is the superior solution, I personally think that a lot of the problems people experience with CO2 guns stems from their lack of understanding of how to work with the CO2. I have a Tau 200 that was one of the first "air" guns I got and I have been very satisfied with it. I now prefer my ans. 2002CA but the Tau still shoots an order of magnitude better than I do.
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.45031.45000

[Roland Cannon]

I had always wondered this about the co2 guns. Two years ago I happened to be forced to travel to Great Falls Montana. The temperature was a balmamy -40.
My Tau 7 was set up to shoot at 480 fps. Outside in great falls it shot at 435. Obviously, I did not let the gun get THAT cold, but it was cold enough to hurt my hands.
Velosity did drop, but not as much as I thought it would.
.45052.44980