A friend of mine wrote that he had purchased a sight insert for his air rifle. He complained that the cost of the insert was not fair. He believes that there were only pennies worth of plastic per insert, a cheezy holder, and shipping. He could not justify the cost in his own mind and complained bitterly that the cost of shooting sports was getting out of hand. I wrote him back and listed the costs of various sports. I pointed out how one we get past the initial investment in our firearms and equipment that shooting costs are reasonable. He still argued that he could not see how retail costs could be where they are. I wrote him back and this is what I said;
"Retail prices can be tracked to investment recovery, supply line, and overhead costs. The supply and demand pricing theory of economics also influence a products retail cost. Profit margins, (gross income minus the expences), must be attractive enough to encourage people to invest, own, promote, or engage in any business activity. This is part of reason why pennies worth of colored plastic formed into sight insert cost so much. Go ahead and try to produce the part yourself. The investment in the hand tools alone would exceed the retail cost for the insert. Unless you, your family, or a close friend own a casting/machine shop it is unlikely you'll get far making your own metal parts. You could go to Walmart and get everything you need to shoot 50 meter smallbore or 10 meter air . From the gun, a bolt action Marlin or a Crossman .177 co2; the ammo, a bucket of .22 cal shells or copperhead .177 cal wad cutters; the spotting scope- they carry Bushnell's and Simmons along with camera tripods to hold it up; a shooting mat- a ground cover from the camping section; shooting coat and pants- they sell carhart canvas work jackets and pants in the outdoor section; shooting boots- a pair of lace-up flat sole work boots might pass the equipment check. Pay for a years membership to the host organization, an event entry fee and have fun. There is nothing in the rule book that says you must be competitive in order to participate at any level. To win at the national and international level an investment has to be made in the shooter. That is the choice of the shooter, their family, and/or their club. Once you get beyond mass produced goods, retail costs rise significantly. If you're trying to stretch your available purchase dollars, quality used equipment from individuals who have upgraded or quit shooting can be had with deep discounts to it's origional retail price. Shooting can be an expensive activity, depending on the disipline.
If you wish to be among the elite there is a cost to compete.
Can the subject of "fair prices on equipment" be boiled down to simply saying that you want to find a supplier who'll sell you equipment at a loss? The problem with that line of thinking is that soon there will be no competition among the existing suppliers because there will be few if any left. Want to guess what the price will be then?"
.43055.0
"Fair Prices on Equipment"
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Patrick
Re: Precisely why I don't drive Formula One *s* - nt
nt
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.43057.43055
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.43057.43055
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Michèle
Re: "Fair Prices on Equipment"
: A friend of mine wrote that he had purchased a sight insert for his air rifle. He complained that the cost of the insert was not fair. He believes that there were only pennies worth of plastic per insert, a cheezy holder, and shipping. He could not justify the cost in his own mind and complained bitterly that the cost of shooting sports was getting out of hand. I wrote him back and listed the costs of various sports. I pointed out how one we get past the initial investment in our firearms and equipment that shooting costs are reasonable. He still argued that he could not see how retail costs could be where they are. I wrote him back and this is what I said;
: "Retail prices can be tracked to investment recovery, supply line, and overhead costs. The supply and demand pricing theory of economics also influence a products retail cost. Profit margins, (gross income minus the expences), must be attractive enough to encourage people to invest, own, promote, or engage in any business activity. This is part of reason why pennies worth of colored plastic formed into sight insert cost so much. Go ahead and try to produce the part yourself. The investment in the hand tools alone would exceed the retail cost for the insert. Unless you, your family, or a close friend own a casting/machine shop it is unlikely you'll get far making your own metal parts. You could go to Walmart and get everything you need to shoot 50 meter smallbore or 10 meter air . From the gun, a bolt action Marlin or a Crossman .177 co2; the ammo, a bucket of .22 cal shells or copperhead .177 cal wad cutters; the spotting scope- they carry Bushnell's and Simmons along with camera tripods to hold it up; a shooting mat- a ground cover from the camping section; shooting coat and pants- they sell carhart canvas work jackets and pants in the outdoor section; shooting boots- a pair of lace-up flat sole work boots might pass the equipment check. Pay for a years membership to the host organization, an event entry fee and have fun. There is nothing in the rule book that says you must be competitive in order to participate at any level. To win at the national and international level an investment has to be made in the shooter. That is the choice of the shooter, their family, and/or their club. Once you get beyond mass produced goods, retail costs rise significantly. If you're trying to stretch your available purchase dollars, quality used equipment from individuals who have upgraded or quit shooting can be had with deep discounts to it's origional retail price. Shooting can be an expensive activity, depending on the disipline.
: If you wish to be among the elite there is a cost to compete.
: Can the subject of "fair prices on equipment" be boiled down to simply saying that you want to find a supplier who'll sell you equipment at a loss? The problem with that line of thinking is that soon there will be no competition among the existing suppliers because there will be few if any left. Want to guess what the price will be then?"
Running a junior program and purchasing the equipment for it, I am also sometimes frustrated by the cost of seemingly simple parts.
While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.43058.43055
: "Retail prices can be tracked to investment recovery, supply line, and overhead costs. The supply and demand pricing theory of economics also influence a products retail cost. Profit margins, (gross income minus the expences), must be attractive enough to encourage people to invest, own, promote, or engage in any business activity. This is part of reason why pennies worth of colored plastic formed into sight insert cost so much. Go ahead and try to produce the part yourself. The investment in the hand tools alone would exceed the retail cost for the insert. Unless you, your family, or a close friend own a casting/machine shop it is unlikely you'll get far making your own metal parts. You could go to Walmart and get everything you need to shoot 50 meter smallbore or 10 meter air . From the gun, a bolt action Marlin or a Crossman .177 co2; the ammo, a bucket of .22 cal shells or copperhead .177 cal wad cutters; the spotting scope- they carry Bushnell's and Simmons along with camera tripods to hold it up; a shooting mat- a ground cover from the camping section; shooting coat and pants- they sell carhart canvas work jackets and pants in the outdoor section; shooting boots- a pair of lace-up flat sole work boots might pass the equipment check. Pay for a years membership to the host organization, an event entry fee and have fun. There is nothing in the rule book that says you must be competitive in order to participate at any level. To win at the national and international level an investment has to be made in the shooter. That is the choice of the shooter, their family, and/or their club. Once you get beyond mass produced goods, retail costs rise significantly. If you're trying to stretch your available purchase dollars, quality used equipment from individuals who have upgraded or quit shooting can be had with deep discounts to it's origional retail price. Shooting can be an expensive activity, depending on the disipline.
: If you wish to be among the elite there is a cost to compete.
: Can the subject of "fair prices on equipment" be boiled down to simply saying that you want to find a supplier who'll sell you equipment at a loss? The problem with that line of thinking is that soon there will be no competition among the existing suppliers because there will be few if any left. Want to guess what the price will be then?"
Running a junior program and purchasing the equipment for it, I am also sometimes frustrated by the cost of seemingly simple parts.
While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.43058.43055
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pdeal
Re: "Fair Prices on Equipment"
Also, generally people who make such comments have no idea what it takes to make such things. I have a hobby machine shop and have made my own plastic inserts. They need to machined very precisely to insure they will fit, the center hole is concentric with the outside, and that the center hole is the correct size and that the bevel is correct. After making a few the store bought ones look like a bargain.
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.43060.43055
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.43060.43055
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Steve R
Re: "fair prices"
: Running a junior program and purchasing the equipment for it, I am also sometimes frustrated by the cost of seemingly simple parts.
: While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
Add to the $0.54, $0.34 per mile for the vehicle you drove to the store. If you drove more than 11 miles...... all kidding aside, you can save some money on a very narrow range of items.
.43065.43058
: While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
Add to the $0.54, $0.34 per mile for the vehicle you drove to the store. If you drove more than 11 miles...... all kidding aside, you can save some money on a very narrow range of items.
.43065.43058
-
Steve R
Re: "fair prices"
: Running a junior program and purchasing the equipment for it, I am also sometimes frustrated by the cost of seemingly simple parts.
: While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
Add to the $0.54, $0.34 per mile for the vehicle you drove to the store. If you drove more than 11 miles...... all kidding aside, you can save some money on a very narrow range of items.
.43066.43058
: While I have not found any inexpensive sight inserts at the local hardware store, I have been VERY pleased to purchase a number of metric screws, allen wrenches, 0-rings, etc. for mere pennies. One screw (which was $4.50 with a well-known dealer) was .54 at the hardware store.
Add to the $0.54, $0.34 per mile for the vehicle you drove to the store. If you drove more than 11 miles...... all kidding aside, you can save some money on a very narrow range of items.
.43066.43058
-
Michele
Re: "fair prices"
: Add to the $0.54, $0.34 per mile for the vehicle you drove to the store. If you drove more than 11 miles...... all kidding aside, you can save some money on a very narrow range of items.
Running a program for 16 juniors (most of whom do not own their own equipment), I have found that there are certain items that you CAN save on. Though the range of items may be narrow, the $20. or so I save on some small items can be applied toward bigger ones. Allen wrenches and screws are two items that frequently 'disappear' from the equipment locker. Not purchasing replacements one at a time, and not paying shipping, we do save some dollars. It is also useful to keep some backups around. Did you know, for example, that the evil little 0-ring in the cylinder pumps can be found for .11. Even with the gas I expend (less than 2 miles), it is a bargain over having one shipped.
For beginning level athletes, there are also some do-able projects that can cut costs. Weights for rifles can be made from solder as well as the tire balancing weights (complete with sticky sided tape) when placed strategically.
Yes, there are some items that you're better off just purchasing, but if you're cost conscious you can also find affordable solutions.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.43067.43066
Running a program for 16 juniors (most of whom do not own their own equipment), I have found that there are certain items that you CAN save on. Though the range of items may be narrow, the $20. or so I save on some small items can be applied toward bigger ones. Allen wrenches and screws are two items that frequently 'disappear' from the equipment locker. Not purchasing replacements one at a time, and not paying shipping, we do save some dollars. It is also useful to keep some backups around. Did you know, for example, that the evil little 0-ring in the cylinder pumps can be found for .11. Even with the gas I expend (less than 2 miles), it is a bargain over having one shipped.
For beginning level athletes, there are also some do-able projects that can cut costs. Weights for rifles can be made from solder as well as the tire balancing weights (complete with sticky sided tape) when placed strategically.
Yes, there are some items that you're better off just purchasing, but if you're cost conscious you can also find affordable solutions.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.43067.43066
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Davd J
Re: "Fair Prices on Equipment"
I believe that a wise buyer will buy only quality products from quality sources. The truth of alot of this can also be seen from the other side such as the dealer's. He must make a decent profit to afford to set on those $5.00 screws so as to have them available to the few that could have problems at matches and need them now. Think about it. The cost of going to all the major matches an hauling all the inventory. I for one do support dealers and I also will buy the .54 cent screws when possible. But thanks to the dealers that have bailed us all out at a crucial point at a high level match. Please don't take this as a slam.
Many thanks to all the dealer's that go to the matches such as Pilkguns, Trybon, Centershot, and Brensovitch and all the others that I haven't met.
.43081.43055
Many thanks to all the dealer's that go to the matches such as Pilkguns, Trybon, Centershot, and Brensovitch and all the others that I haven't met.
.43081.43055
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PETE
Marketing 101: What will the market bear...
The fair price is the price the market will bear. If you are not willing to pay, the price is too high. Cost, profit margin, ROCE, IRR, have nothing to do with it.
Personally, I don't find the equipment costs are really a barrier, even for the best equipment. Not that money is no object, but look at some other sports and the costs. The equipment is generally well made and outlasts us. There are a range of products, new and used.
The real cost is time and commitment.
I believe in loyality to dealers and in this way we are very fortunate in shooting, the service and support we get is very good.
: A friend of mine wrote that he had purchased a sight insert for his air rifle. He complained that the cost of the insert was not fair. He believes that there were only pennies worth of plastic per insert, a cheezy holder, and shipping. He could not justify the cost in his own mind and complained bitterly that the cost of shooting sports was getting out of hand. I wrote him back and listed the costs of various sports. I pointed out how one we get past the initial investment in our firearms and equipment that shooting costs are reasonable. He still argued that he could not see how retail costs could be where they are. I wrote him back and this is what I said;
: "Retail prices can be tracked to investment recovery, supply line, and overhead costs. The supply and demand pricing theory of economics also influence a products retail cost. Profit margins, (gross income minus the expences), must be attractive enough to encourage people to invest, own, promote, or engage in any business activity. This is part of reason why pennies worth of colored plastic formed into sight insert cost so much. Go ahead and try to produce the part yourself. The investment in the hand tools alone would exceed the retail cost for the insert. Unless you, your family, or a close friend own a casting/machine shop it is unlikely you'll get far making your own metal parts. You could go to Walmart and get everything you need to shoot 50 meter smallbore or 10 meter air . From the gun, a bolt action Marlin or a Crossman .177 co2; the ammo, a bucket of .22 cal shells or copperhead .177 cal wad cutters; the spotting scope- they carry Bushnell's and Simmons along with camera tripods to hold it up; a shooting mat- a ground cover from the camping section; shooting coat and pants- they sell carhart canvas work jackets and pants in the outdoor section; shooting boots- a pair of lace-up flat sole work boots might pass the equipment check. Pay for a years membership to the host organization, an event entry fee and have fun. There is nothing in the rule book that says you must be competitive in order to participate at any level. To win at the national and international level an investment has to be made in the shooter. That is the choice of the shooter, their family, and/or their club. Once you get beyond mass produced goods, retail costs rise significantly. If you're trying to stretch your available purchase dollars, quality used equipment from individuals who have upgraded or quit shooting can be had with deep discounts to it's origional retail price. Shooting can be an expensive activity, depending on the disipline.
: If you wish to be among the elite there is a cost to compete.
: Can the subject of "fair prices on equipment" be boiled down to simply saying that you want to find a supplier who'll sell you equipment at a loss? The problem with that line of thinking is that soon there will be no competition among the existing suppliers because there will be few if any left. Want to guess what the price will be then?"
.43083.43055
Personally, I don't find the equipment costs are really a barrier, even for the best equipment. Not that money is no object, but look at some other sports and the costs. The equipment is generally well made and outlasts us. There are a range of products, new and used.
The real cost is time and commitment.
I believe in loyality to dealers and in this way we are very fortunate in shooting, the service and support we get is very good.
: A friend of mine wrote that he had purchased a sight insert for his air rifle. He complained that the cost of the insert was not fair. He believes that there were only pennies worth of plastic per insert, a cheezy holder, and shipping. He could not justify the cost in his own mind and complained bitterly that the cost of shooting sports was getting out of hand. I wrote him back and listed the costs of various sports. I pointed out how one we get past the initial investment in our firearms and equipment that shooting costs are reasonable. He still argued that he could not see how retail costs could be where they are. I wrote him back and this is what I said;
: "Retail prices can be tracked to investment recovery, supply line, and overhead costs. The supply and demand pricing theory of economics also influence a products retail cost. Profit margins, (gross income minus the expences), must be attractive enough to encourage people to invest, own, promote, or engage in any business activity. This is part of reason why pennies worth of colored plastic formed into sight insert cost so much. Go ahead and try to produce the part yourself. The investment in the hand tools alone would exceed the retail cost for the insert. Unless you, your family, or a close friend own a casting/machine shop it is unlikely you'll get far making your own metal parts. You could go to Walmart and get everything you need to shoot 50 meter smallbore or 10 meter air . From the gun, a bolt action Marlin or a Crossman .177 co2; the ammo, a bucket of .22 cal shells or copperhead .177 cal wad cutters; the spotting scope- they carry Bushnell's and Simmons along with camera tripods to hold it up; a shooting mat- a ground cover from the camping section; shooting coat and pants- they sell carhart canvas work jackets and pants in the outdoor section; shooting boots- a pair of lace-up flat sole work boots might pass the equipment check. Pay for a years membership to the host organization, an event entry fee and have fun. There is nothing in the rule book that says you must be competitive in order to participate at any level. To win at the national and international level an investment has to be made in the shooter. That is the choice of the shooter, their family, and/or their club. Once you get beyond mass produced goods, retail costs rise significantly. If you're trying to stretch your available purchase dollars, quality used equipment from individuals who have upgraded or quit shooting can be had with deep discounts to it's origional retail price. Shooting can be an expensive activity, depending on the disipline.
: If you wish to be among the elite there is a cost to compete.
: Can the subject of "fair prices on equipment" be boiled down to simply saying that you want to find a supplier who'll sell you equipment at a loss? The problem with that line of thinking is that soon there will be no competition among the existing suppliers because there will be few if any left. Want to guess what the price will be then?"
.43083.43055
-
Patrick
Re: "Fair Prices on Equipment"
: Many thanks to all the dealer's that go to the matches such as Pilkguns, Trybon, Centershot, and Brensovitch and all the others that I haven't met.
Case in point: at the USA World Cup, the on-site tech (from CenterShot?) overhauled my old GSP (backup gun for a competitor), popped in a few small pieces, made recommendations on what should be investigated in a year or two, cleaned the gun and threw in some education. This was completely free and greatly appreciated.
Warren and Scott were helping out the shooters as well. Sure, it's good advertising, but more importantly, they are helping the athletes. I get the same kind of assistance from International Imports in Canada. When I buy that special part, it helps the vendor (who I need to be there) and that in turn helps our shooting sports athletes elsewhere.
Patrick
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.43089.43081
Case in point: at the USA World Cup, the on-site tech (from CenterShot?) overhauled my old GSP (backup gun for a competitor), popped in a few small pieces, made recommendations on what should be investigated in a year or two, cleaned the gun and threw in some education. This was completely free and greatly appreciated.
Warren and Scott were helping out the shooters as well. Sure, it's good advertising, but more importantly, they are helping the athletes. I get the same kind of assistance from International Imports in Canada. When I buy that special part, it helps the vendor (who I need to be there) and that in turn helps our shooting sports athletes elsewhere.
Patrick
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.43089.43081
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David J
Re: Marketing 101: What will the market bear...
Correct, the fair price is what the market will bear. I agree with what you have said and was only making a comment
.43094.43083
.43094.43083
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Steve R
"Reality 101"
Marketing theory may promote market weight as the only relevent aspect of large scale retail economics but if you operate a small business and intend to remain in business then you must be able to recover your costs, investment, and earn a profit. If market forces demand that your product be sold at a loss and the investment recovery ratio is below the profit threshold across your sales line then you are going to be operating a charity not a business.
.43119.43083
.43119.43083
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Steve R
"Reality 101"
Marketing theory may promote market weight as the only relevent aspect of large scale retail economics but if you operate a small business and intend to remain in business then you must be able to recover your costs, investment, and earn a profit. If market forces demand that your product be sold at a loss and the investment recovery ratio is below the profit threshold across your sales line then you are going to be operating a charity not a business.
.43120.43083
.43120.43083