TargetTalk

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:00 am**

For those of you who do their own maintenance work on their air pistol(s), does anybody have any thoughts on the relative ease of such work from one make or model to another?
(I had meant to ask this and was struck by the coincidence of the similar question just posted about support.)

When I was involved with a busy club program about 20 years ago, we were transitioning from CO2 to scuba air. We had a few Steyr LP1s, including a couple converted to air. There were a few issues related to the regulator and velocity adjustment screw, but overall they were great and easy to maintain. The old FWB CO2 pistols were tanks. No trouble at all. The FWB 34 was a different story....

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:16 am**

The Steyr, as you point out, is easy. The regulator comes off with 4 screws, and two more hold the piston and washer stack together. The firing valve can then come out the hole from there. Adjusting the velocity is easy, and there are YouTube videos produced by Steyr for replacing or adjusting most of the gun.
I have never liked the physical look of them, but the quality and ease of service makes it a winner in my book.
The rear firing weight to offset the pellet going forward is also welcomed on the follow through. I don't know if other marques do that. Lastly, not needing a screw driver to adjust the sights isthe final reason I eventually switched to its design. I have the LP10 prior to the Evo, other than be able to adjust its sights for gun deviations from vertical, I can't say what else the Evo brings to the table from the original .

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:50 am**

If you use a SSP (Walther, Pardini, FAS, etc.), maintenance will mainly consist of changing an O-ring or two and a little lube.

For your question below:

http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63428

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:03 pm**

Rover, I have a IZH 47m and the only thing I can think of lubing would be the cocking lever. What oil or lube would you use on the pivot pins, and is there any other places that need attention. I've been shooting 10 meter for about 2 yrs now, what a fun sport, it's a lot harder than it appears and requires lots of dedication .
Stan

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:59 pm**

I re-sealed my P44 a few months ago with one of the kits from Nikkonos in Canada. It took about 2 hours if I remember right, and really would probably only take 30-45 mins now that I've done it. Gassing it back up the first time was a bit of a pucker moment, but all went well. It's a pretty straightforward process with little to screw up.

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:07 pm**

How about air cylinders? Pardini provides parts and exploded view diagrams for maintenance. But, Steyr, for example, considers this a non-user serviceable part.
With the whole "expiration date" issue aside, I at least like the idea of being able to keep things running.

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:55 pm**

I haven't had a need to take apart my Steyr cylinder. But it can come apart with a watch makers wrench, which I bought for about $13. The parts that might go bad are seals, and there is a schematic on the Steyr website.

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:02 pm**

brent375hh wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:55 pm I haven't had a need to take apart my Steyr cylinder. But it can come apart with a watch makers wrench, which I bought for about $13. The parts that might go bad are seals, and there is a schematic on the Steyr website.

Is metal fatigue not part of the equation that results in the 10 year certs on the tanks? If it was just o-rings, that would be a pretty scandalous way to bilk users out of a few hundred bucks for replacements...

Posted: **Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:11 pm**

I am not a metallurgy expert, nor stating what I might do. I am just saying that they do come apart, and the schematic exists. I have to think that cycles are more important than just age. The kids at the OTC probably cycle cylinders more in a year than I will in a lifetime. My 30 year old scuba tank just passed hydro, and they said it was in good shape, enough that they filled it 10% over. I have a lot of respect for the stored energy in a 80 CF tank.

Posted: **Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 am**

Coincidentally, I am a metallurgist and also an active air pistol shooter. What brent375hh wrote about Steyr pistols is a profound truth confirmed over the years. If the cylinder is manufactured, tested well (normal strength & quality surface finish), and maintained under normal conditions, where its mechanical and corrosive damage can be ruled out, then from the shooter's point of view, its life is unlimited. The danger and stress of a pressure vessel is determined by the product of its internal volume and pressure. In the case of air pistols, the volume (including diameter and length) is so small that no law or standard affects them. Weapons manufacturers and the ISSF then arbitrarily introduced a 10-year period for use. So far, not a single case of a crash of an air pistol cylinder with air from the point of view of time has been recorded. It's just business. Forget about cyclic and static fatigue of the material, because the operating stress is well below the yield strength of commonly used Al alloys. If this were not the case, then it would be a design error. However, this would have nothing to do with the period of 10 years!
Have fun to all

Posted: **Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:34 am**

pbrejsa wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 am Coincidentally, I am a metallurgist and also an active air pistol shooter. What brent375hh wrote about Steyr pistols is a profound truth confirmed over the years. If the cylinder is manufactured, tested well (normal strength & quality surface finish), and maintained under normal conditions, where its mechanical and corrosive damage can be ruled out, then from the shooter's point of view, its life is unlimited. The danger and stress of a pressure vessel is determined by the product of its internal volume and pressure. In the case of air pistols, the volume (including diameter and length) is so small that no law or standard affects them. Weapons manufacturers and the ISSF then arbitrarily introduced a 10-year period for use. So far, not a single case of a crash of an air pistol cylinder with air from the point of view of time has been recorded. It's just business. Forget about cyclic and static fatigue of the material, because the operating stress is well below the yield strength of commonly used Al alloys. If this were not the case, then it would be a design error. However, this would have nothing to do with the period of 10 years!
Have fun to all

Respectfully, you are incorrect on many points. First, the air tanks are regulated pressure vessels. We used to have infinite lives since we were pressure vessels under 1/2 liter. That changed when reports out of the marine industry showed that a number of life raft high pressure inflators were failing inspections due to corrosion. The law changed to lifetime limit this class of air cylinder to 10 years from the manufacturing date. The Specifics on the law are here PED 97/23/EC Annex 1 Article 1 (1) Annex 1 Article 1 (2.3) Annex 1 Article 1 (2.5) Annex 3, 1.1 What you will find after digesting this is your answer..... To make it easy, since our air cylinders lack designed access and an engineered recertification methodology, they are end of lifed by statute. It has nothing to do with the ISSF changing the rules for no reason, the rules changed as a result of the PED revision. The reason all recent production tanks are date stamped is to be in conformance with the record keeping requirements of the PED.

It would be good if you started to understand the law instead of looking at it as an inconvenience. I agree that there is a high probability that our tanks would be fine unless of course it is a Morini tank, one of which failed venting the tank contents prompting their worldwide recall for what was later determined to be stress corrosion initiated failure brought on by the prolonged exposure to chlorinated Hydrocarbons in a metal cleaning product used in error.........

Posted: **Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:23 am**

spektr wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:34 am
pbrejsa wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 am Coincidentally, I am a metallurgist and also an active air pistol shooter. What brent375hh wrote about Steyr pistols is a profound truth confirmed over the years. If the cylinder is manufactured, tested well (normal strength & quality surface finish), and maintained under normal conditions, where its mechanical and corrosive damage can be ruled out, then from the shooter's point of view, its life is unlimited. The danger and stress of a pressure vessel is determined by the product of its internal volume and pressure. In the case of air pistols, the volume (including diameter and length) is so small that no law or standard affects them. Weapons manufacturers and the ISSF then arbitrarily introduced a 10-year period for use. So far, not a single case of a crash of an air pistol cylinder with air from the point of view of time has been recorded. It's just business. Forget about cyclic and static fatigue of the material, because the operating stress is well below the yield strength of commonly used Al alloys. If this were not the case, then it would be a design error. However, this would have nothing to do with the period of 10 years!
Have fun to all
Respectfully, you are incorrect on many points. First, the air tanks are regulated pressure vessels. We used to have infinite lives since we were pressure vessels under 1/2 liter. That changed when reports out of the marine industry showed that a number of life raft high pressure inflators were failing inspections due to corrosion. The law changed to lifetime limit this class of air cylinder to 10 years from the manufacturing date. The Specifics on the law are here PED 97/23/EC Annex 1 Article 1 (1) Annex 1 Article 1 (2.3) Annex 1 Article 1 (2.5) Annex 3, 1.1 What you will find after digesting this is your answer..... To make it easy, since our air cylinders lack designed access and an engineered recertification methodology, they are end of lifed by statute. It has nothing to do with the ISSF changing the rules for no reason, the rules changed as a result of the PED revision. The reason all recent production tanks are date stamped is to be in conformance with the record keeping requirements of the PED.

It would be good if you started to understand the law instead of looking at it as an inconvenience. I agree that there is a high probability that our tanks would be fine unless of course it is a Morini tank, one of which failed venting the tank contents prompting their worldwide recall for what was later determined to be stress corrosion initiated failure brought on by the prolonged exposure to chlorinated Hydrocarbons in a metal cleaning product used in error.........

I am still not a metallurgy expert but you are talking about corrosion due to salt water and chlorine, not aluminum structurally failing due to age alone.

Posted: **Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:22 am**

This 10yr air tank argument has bee done to death in the past, to find out more use the search function.
It wasn't the ISSF who introduced it but the German standards authority.
The alloy tank life was 20yr but after a couple of incidents with small tanks ( in marine use) they reduced life of small alloy pressure tanks to 10yrs.
Check with the laws governing small volume tanks in your own country.
Small alloy tanks in Australia are not hydrostaticly tested but are visually inspected and have a 20yr life.
Tanks over 20yrs old are scrap (ie. early Morini fixed tanks).
The unknown's are the CO2 tanks, they are a lot lower pressure (about 800psi).

Generally the static 'o' ring seals in our pistol tanks are good for 5-7yrs before leaking.
The working seals may go sooner, those fitted to valves and gauges.
If you don't know what you are doing...GET IT SERVICED.
Remember you are playing with 3000 psi......very dangerous.

Posted: **Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:27 am**

David M wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:22 am
The unknown's are the CO2 tanks, they are a lot lower pressure (about 800psi).

Respectfully. I agree we have beaten this to death.

CO2 tanks are not an unknown. They are a different class of pressure vessel and
the PED calls all this out. CO2 cartridges are deemed to have insufficient volume
to require regulation beyond the manufacturing requirements stated in the PED, My 20
pound CO2 bottle has hydro and visual inspection requirements, and I believe there's a 15
year hydro timeline, but I don't worry about it as I use exchange tanks on the very rare
occasion that my bulk filled pistols actually get to the bottom of it. At 3 oz a fill, its going to be a while
and maybe whoever deals with it after I'm worm dirt will find out what the rules are then because they may change.
I gotta admit though, CO2 at 15 dollars for 20 pounds is a whole lot easier to do than all the scuba tank annual crap.

Lastly.... If anyone has a Skanaker or an FEG safe queen looking for a new home, drop me a note

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:37 pm**

Spectr, I apologize, it is not enough to read the standard without thought, but it is necessary to understand the requirements of this standard. For small vessels with a pressure of 200 bar and below, only the date of manufacture is required and identification is recommended only, the others are already specified by the vessel manufacturer. Of course, if the manufacturer secures further production in the next 10 years, he would be stupid not to do so. As for the Morini cylinders produced from 2016 to 2017, which concerned the recall, it turned out that they were all OK. The cylinders in question were made 5 to 6 years ago, or am I wrong? By the way, I commented above only on the limit of service life of 10 years without mentioning anything else, ie the manufacturer, material, operational stress or the influence of external working conditions. I understand that many people need to comment on things they do not understand. I consider external mechanical damage or exceeding the working pressure to be much more important from a safety point of view. If it is not a problem for you to replace the air cylinder every 10 years, live in peace. Technically, 10 years is unjustifiable nonsense. Nothing can be changed about that.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:18 pm**

6string wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:07 pm How about air cylinders? Pardini provides parts and exploded view diagrams for maintenance. But, Steyr, for example, considers this a non-user serviceable part.
With the whole "expiration date" issue aside, I at least like the idea of being able to keep things running.

If you look at the exploded diagram for the LP10, it shows you the cylinder parts and assembly drawings.

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Relative ease of air pistol maintenance

Relative ease of air pistol maintenance

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