TargetTalk

I'm looking at a couple of different pistols but there are some missing details that have been hard to hunt down. Hopefully someone here can fill in some blanks for me.

The two pistols are the Feinwerkbau P8X and the Pardini K12. I can get the P8X locally and I'm leaning in that direction currently. The Pardini sounds interesting though. The air cylinders can take 250 bar where the P8X can only take 200 bar. Are the K12 cylinders smaller and need more pressure to get decent shot count? Or does that extra pressure translate into a higher shot count per cylinder? If the K12 does get more shots per cylinder, why does it come with two cylinders? What pressure will guns like this shoot down to? Are there any advantages/disadvantages I might not know about with either pistol? Any others I should consider? I have no interest in electronic triggers. I get the advantages, but I don't like the idea of having another complication if I put the pistol aside for a while.

A little background: I have done some informal bullseye matches in a league with .22s. I used a Browning Buck Mark 5.5 Target with a red dot and eventually outfitted it with adjustable Karl Nill match grips. I typically shot in the low-500 range (hand scoring). I suspect that fatigue played a big part in why I never really progressed much more. I was riding dirt bikes on the weekends (really, really hard riding) and then trying to be steady and shoot on Monday nights. I could often tell that I wasn't fully recovered from the rides when I was shooting. I was invited to a 10 meter air pistol/rifle shoot in March of this year. I was at an airgun range shooting my Webley Alecto pistol unsupported, bullseye style with open sights and hitting a target at 20 yards. I wasn't making a great group, but someone saw some potential. The guy who invited me to the 10 Meter match loaned me a Feinwerkbau P11 with a red dot. I scored 544.7 (decimal computer scoring system). I started looking at pistols after that but eventually my interest faded from a combination of analysis paralysis and mission creep. A couple weeks ago I went into the local airgun store to take a look at a lower cost Gehmann GP-1 and was invited back to the 10 meter shoot again. This time I used a borrowed FWB P44 and open sights and only managed a 511.4. That's with zero practice in the interim and I didn't do myself any favors by doing a workout late in the day before the match. I have no plans to try to compete against anyone but myself and I could probably get away with a single stroke pneumatic, but it seems hard to find those and I like the PCPs.

It always amazes me when people get hung up about the number of shots you can get from a cylinder.
When you're going shooting you check that you've got enough pellets and that you've got 2 full cylinders.
If the cylinders give up before you do then I admire your stamina.
As for the people who have to change cylinders during a match, well that's just careless and lazy.

I filled one cylinder from a freshly filled SCUBA tank, then proceeded to shoot two full (60) matches plus 21 sighters and STILL had air left. YMMV

It always amazes me when people get hung up on their own little dim view of the world and can't conceive of a reason to ask a simple question. But that's enough time wasted on that nonsense.

Since I can fill cylinders at the 10M match, I'm wondering if I would have enough air to practice a bit without needing to own a CF or Scuba tank. Or, if I need a tank or pump either way, maybe there's an advantage to the lower pressure cylinder since it can be filled from a lower pressure tank or would require less hand pump effort.

The P8X cylinder filled to 200bar (2900psi) will get you around 200 shots. The gauge is nicer & seemingly more accurate than the scale on the K12 cylinders.

The significant advantage of the P8X over the K12 is the adjustable grip (K12 grip is fixed) and the method of adjustment is very convenient: loosen grip (don't need to remove it), adjust, then re-tighten. The P8x has more adjustable sights. P8X trigger blade position is more adjustable. The P8X also requires only 1 allen key for most adjustments (trigger, sights, grip, weights), one additional larger allen to loosen the grip and a small flat blade screwdriver for notch width/depth.

Yes, higher pressure = more shots regardless of cylinder size.

However, filling the K12 cylinders to 250 bar (3626psi) requires a means to fill them. 3000psi SCUBA won't do it and you'll grunt more pumping to that pressure. iirc the K12 @ 250bar got similar shot count as P8X at 200bar. But i could be mis-remembering.

wasatch wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 am The P8X cylinder filled to 200bar (2900psi) will get you around 200 shots. The gauge is nicer & seemingly more accurate than the scale on the K12 cylinders.

The significant advantage of the P8X over the K12 is the adjustable grip (K12 grip is fixed) and the method of adjustment is very convenient: loosen grip (don't need to remove it), adjust, then re-tighten. The P8x has more adjustable sights. P8X trigger blade position is more adjustable. The P8X also requires only 1 allen key for most adjustments (trigger, sights, grip, weights), one additional larger allen to loosen the grip and a small flat blade screwdriver for notch width/depth.

I'm not sure the extensive P8X adjustments are all that necessary for me, but good to know.

wasatch wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 amYes, higher pressure = more shots regardless of cylinder size.

That's what I figured -for substantially similar size cylinders anyway.

wasatch wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 amHowever, filling the K12 cylinders to 250 bar (3626psi) requires a means to fill them. 3000psi SCUBA won't do it and you'll grunt more pumping to that pressure. iirc the K12 @ 250bar got similar shot count as P8X at 200bar. But i could be mis-remembering.

If there's no increase in shot count with the extra pressure then I think that kicks the K12 out of the running. Some posts I ran across seemed to hint that it might even have a lower overall shot count than the P8X, which is counter-intuitive. Thank you for the information!

PV=nRT, people! PV=nRT.

Intuitive / counter-intuitive has nothing to do with it.

william wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:27 pm PV=nRT, people! PV=nRT.

Intuitive / counter-intuitive has nothing to do with it.

While I agree that there's no getting away from the ideal gas law, I couldn't find the 'V' of each cylinder. It also seems that some guns may use their gas more efficiently than others to drive pellets down-range.

I've owned LP10's, 162EI's and now the P8X.
Hands down P8X is the best. Everything is easily adjustable which is always great when you get the need to tweak your point or balance or sight picture or trigger placement or feel. No recoil at all.

jbshooter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:06 pm Hands down P8X is the best.

Translation: "Hands down, this is the one HE likes best."

william wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:11 pm

jbshooter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:06 pm Hands down P8X is the best.

Translation: "Hands down, this is the one HE likes best."

C'mon, Sweetie, give the guy a break. He has given a firm answer to the question that pesters the shit out of us. Now we can just refer "The Question" to this post.

Sorry, I should have stated it better..........
Of all the airguns I have used the P8X has given me the most satisfaction (real and holistical) due largely to the ease with which I can adjust out the minor quibbles that present themselves during shooting.
I haven't shot a K12 or LP10E or LP500 but I imagine they are equally good.

So now you're trying to wienie out on us? Leaving "The Question" unanswered....

It is nice to have two cylinders, cuz then you don't have to fill at home, you just switch to the 2nd cylinder.
That is not an issue if you have a SCUBA tank at home to fill from.