I shoot prone and use a vintage stock. It is adjustable only in these areas: (1) length of pull (LOP) - butt plate adjusts fore & aft, (2) length to hand stop (LTH) via full length accessory rail, and (3) butt plate adjusts vertically.
I need guidance on the proper relationship of butt stock pressure against the shoulder versus hand stop pressure against the hand.
I've come to believe my configuration of LOP, LTH and sling length results in a lot of pressure on my hand but very little pressure in my shoulder. I wonder if more shoulder pressure would add stability.
Based on limited testing I seems that by adjusting the buttplate to the rear I get more pressure in the shoulder. At the same time it seems I need to bring the hand stop back a similar amount and shorten the sling as well.
The downside to this is my eye is further from the rear sight.
I compete in US Conventional Outdoor Prone. Distances are 50 and 100 yards. Often the targets are at different heights relative to the firing point resulting in the need to adjust elevation Natural Point of Aim. That situation is probably worth being a topic in its own right.
Any advice on shoulder versus hand stop pressure will be appreciated.
Thanks
Jim
Stock Set-up Questions
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Jim,
The shoulder has to be the main bearing point, otherwise the recoil will be bouncy. Although a 22 doesn't recoil much, your arm weighs much less than your torso+legs, so it moves more readily. Pressure against the shoulder is really a function of sling tension; if your hand is taking the weight, it sounds like the sling is too long for the butt-handstop; or vice versa that the butt-handstop is too short for the sling. You'll need to shorten the sling, or move out the handstop. Depending on your sling, and how close the holes are, you may have to move the handstop too, to get just enough tension.
Sometimes increasing LOP is the way to achieve enough shoulder pressure. However, you don't want to lengthen the LOP more than is necessary. If your trigger hand falls easily on the grip, and the wrist is as straight as the grip geometry allows, I'd leave it as is. Moving the handstop forwards has the same effect, without shifting the weight of the rifle forwards.
German Salazar's article on setting up a tube gun is a good read. He recommends butt-handstop = 2x butt-front of grip + 1in. You may need to tweak things from there, but that's a good start for a 30° position.
Be aware that the sling itself and jacket can affect tension. Is the sling leather or synthetic? If it's leather is there any stretch: leather can last for years, but can lose elasticity when old. If it's stretchy, it's time for a replacement. Does your jacket fit properly around the shoulders? It's not unknown for some to slip a little under the weight of the rifle; this lowers the sling, effectively decreasing tension.
The shoulder has to be the main bearing point, otherwise the recoil will be bouncy. Although a 22 doesn't recoil much, your arm weighs much less than your torso+legs, so it moves more readily. Pressure against the shoulder is really a function of sling tension; if your hand is taking the weight, it sounds like the sling is too long for the butt-handstop; or vice versa that the butt-handstop is too short for the sling. You'll need to shorten the sling, or move out the handstop. Depending on your sling, and how close the holes are, you may have to move the handstop too, to get just enough tension.
Sometimes increasing LOP is the way to achieve enough shoulder pressure. However, you don't want to lengthen the LOP more than is necessary. If your trigger hand falls easily on the grip, and the wrist is as straight as the grip geometry allows, I'd leave it as is. Moving the handstop forwards has the same effect, without shifting the weight of the rifle forwards.
German Salazar's article on setting up a tube gun is a good read. He recommends butt-handstop = 2x butt-front of grip + 1in. You may need to tweak things from there, but that's a good start for a 30° position.
Be aware that the sling itself and jacket can affect tension. Is the sling leather or synthetic? If it's leather is there any stretch: leather can last for years, but can lose elasticity when old. If it's stretchy, it's time for a replacement. Does your jacket fit properly around the shoulders? It's not unknown for some to slip a little under the weight of the rifle; this lowers the sling, effectively decreasing tension.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Tim
Many thanks for the reply. You are a wealth of information.
All of my prior experience was with service rifle. You had to make yourself fit the rifle. I read Salazar's article a few years ago and recall his length to handstop = 2 X LOP. In fact his recommendation is where I started and it is still close to that ratio. As I recall his article also recommended having the face far forward on the cheek rest. Unfortunately Salazar's website went dark some time ago and I had not copied the article.
I use a US style heavy canvas coat and it is tight across the shoulders and back. I have not noticed any tendency for the coat to slip. I've test fit coats that literally would pull up and over my head.
I use a Hata brand sling which is very similar to an early Kurt Thune. It is synthetic and the hole spacing is about 10 mm.
I've experimented with moving the handstop fore and aft and changing the sling setting a like amount. So far what I've done has not affected shoulder pressure. I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire 20 shots plus sighters and the sling tension is I use is at my comfort limit. If I go with a tighter sling the rifle cants. US targets have multiple bulls so elevation shifts are required (this is one of my problem areas). A very tight sling seems to make this more difficult.
I'm confused by the mechanics of this. It seems to me that no matter the LTH and LOP the amount of force on the handstop ought to be the same as that in the shoulder. With my setup it seems I have to pry my hand away from the handstop while the butt has very little force on it. The butt stays in my shoulder if I let go with my trigger hand but just barely.
I had not considered the effect of inconsistent recoil with a loose butt to shoulder interface.
Seems I ought to run tests with longer LOP and observe the effect on the angle of hand to grip to trigger - another issue I had not considered.
Thanks
JIm
Many thanks for the reply. You are a wealth of information.
All of my prior experience was with service rifle. You had to make yourself fit the rifle. I read Salazar's article a few years ago and recall his length to handstop = 2 X LOP. In fact his recommendation is where I started and it is still close to that ratio. As I recall his article also recommended having the face far forward on the cheek rest. Unfortunately Salazar's website went dark some time ago and I had not copied the article.
I use a US style heavy canvas coat and it is tight across the shoulders and back. I have not noticed any tendency for the coat to slip. I've test fit coats that literally would pull up and over my head.
I use a Hata brand sling which is very similar to an early Kurt Thune. It is synthetic and the hole spacing is about 10 mm.
I've experimented with moving the handstop fore and aft and changing the sling setting a like amount. So far what I've done has not affected shoulder pressure. I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire 20 shots plus sighters and the sling tension is I use is at my comfort limit. If I go with a tighter sling the rifle cants. US targets have multiple bulls so elevation shifts are required (this is one of my problem areas). A very tight sling seems to make this more difficult.
I'm confused by the mechanics of this. It seems to me that no matter the LTH and LOP the amount of force on the handstop ought to be the same as that in the shoulder. With my setup it seems I have to pry my hand away from the handstop while the butt has very little force on it. The butt stays in my shoulder if I let go with my trigger hand but just barely.
I had not considered the effect of inconsistent recoil with a loose butt to shoulder interface.
Seems I ought to run tests with longer LOP and observe the effect on the angle of hand to grip to trigger - another issue I had not considered.
Thanks
JIm
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Jim,
Don't mention it.
To a degree the Length to Handstop determines the height of the position. Shorter often equals higher. Some European shooters manage a very steep left arm with their hand well out under the fore-end, but the butt is usually kept short.
Your Dunlop/Freeland type stocks were built for a lower position, because that was the trend in the '60s and '70s. The butt is a little longer than a European aluminium free rifle, and the buttplate doesn't move so high.
I still say that if the weight of the rifle is on your hand, the handstop/sling aren't correctly adjusted. Normally if the LTH is OK, but the sling is too short, you'll have too much pressure on your shoulder. Yes, your supporting hand may be squished, but the sling will pull the rifle back too hard. Pressure on supporting hand, and none in the shoulder, suggest the LTH is too short, so the rifle sags forwards against the sling.
I didn't mention it previously, but the shape of the handstop can apply excess pressure to the thumb. Most stops today are cylindrical, and not particularly wide. Older stops are often quite wide, and can splay out a smaller hand. Also try to keep the left wrist straight, so the rifle sits on the heel if the hand/base of thumb, not on your palm. It's possible your hand is awkwardly placed, and you're feeling pressure before the sling is tight enough to seat the butt. That's only a thought though.
You should be able to drop your right hand from the grip with no loss of stability.
Don't mention it.
To a degree the Length to Handstop determines the height of the position. Shorter often equals higher. Some European shooters manage a very steep left arm with their hand well out under the fore-end, but the butt is usually kept short.
Your Dunlop/Freeland type stocks were built for a lower position, because that was the trend in the '60s and '70s. The butt is a little longer than a European aluminium free rifle, and the buttplate doesn't move so high.
I still say that if the weight of the rifle is on your hand, the handstop/sling aren't correctly adjusted. Normally if the LTH is OK, but the sling is too short, you'll have too much pressure on your shoulder. Yes, your supporting hand may be squished, but the sling will pull the rifle back too hard. Pressure on supporting hand, and none in the shoulder, suggest the LTH is too short, so the rifle sags forwards against the sling.
I didn't mention it previously, but the shape of the handstop can apply excess pressure to the thumb. Most stops today are cylindrical, and not particularly wide. Older stops are often quite wide, and can splay out a smaller hand. Also try to keep the left wrist straight, so the rifle sits on the heel if the hand/base of thumb, not on your palm. It's possible your hand is awkwardly placed, and you're feeling pressure before the sling is tight enough to seat the butt. That's only a thought though.
You should be able to drop your right hand from the grip with no loss of stability.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
This a great thread, and am still trying to wrap my head around how my son is positioning himself etc.
How does the butt-plate positioning play into all of this for prone/kneeling/standing.. Is there a general guideline/formula/anecdote on how it should fit and feel?
How does the butt-plate positioning play into all of this for prone/kneeling/standing.. Is there a general guideline/formula/anecdote on how it should fit and feel?
-
esepulveda
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:00 am
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
I also had many questions regarding the basic prone setup, and one of the articles that helped me set things up was this:
Prone Shooting--Elements of Successful Marksmanship
According to German Salazar:
1. Get into the prone position with your rifle without a sling, handstop or rear sight attached.
2. Adjust the length of pull (LOP) so that your cheek falls on the front part of the cheek-piece without being forward of it.
3. Bring the handstop in to where your hand is resting on the fore-end, it should be a comfortable, natural spot. Work with the sling to get proper tension and then readjust the handstop and LOP as necessary to maintain that forward head position and a comfortable hand position. You may need to do a lot of fine tuning and fiddling here.
4. Raise the butt-plate about 1" to 1.5" over center.
5. When the rifle feels comfortable, close your eyes, then have someone mount the rear sight so that the aperture is about 1" from your eyebrow. This has to be done with eyes closed or you'll tend to crawl towards it while your helper installs it.
6. Raise the cheekpiece until you can't see through the sight. Lower it slowly until the front sight comes into view and is centered. Then stop! Always adjust by coming down from above. That will keep you from lifting your head to compensate.
7. If your stock has a lateral offset adjustment in the butt-plate, move it out at least 1/2" initially and continue to work with it until you are able to bring the rear sight into true alignment with your aiming eye.
8. Revisit the sling adjustment. Loosen and tighten a couple of notches from where you are. Bear in mind that a tight sling that may feel fine for a few minutes can be a real hinderance over a 25-minute string of fire.
9. Keep working at it! Stock adjustments can and will need small changes over time, some permanent, some temporary to adjust to range conditions. The key to the process is developing a finely-tuned sense of what your position feels like when you are shooting well and tuning the stock adjustments to replicate that feeling at any range.
Also there's a very good reply by Tim S right here in TT
Setting up of rifle
Saludos.
-ed
Prone Shooting--Elements of Successful Marksmanship
According to German Salazar:
1. Get into the prone position with your rifle without a sling, handstop or rear sight attached.
2. Adjust the length of pull (LOP) so that your cheek falls on the front part of the cheek-piece without being forward of it.
3. Bring the handstop in to where your hand is resting on the fore-end, it should be a comfortable, natural spot. Work with the sling to get proper tension and then readjust the handstop and LOP as necessary to maintain that forward head position and a comfortable hand position. You may need to do a lot of fine tuning and fiddling here.
4. Raise the butt-plate about 1" to 1.5" over center.
5. When the rifle feels comfortable, close your eyes, then have someone mount the rear sight so that the aperture is about 1" from your eyebrow. This has to be done with eyes closed or you'll tend to crawl towards it while your helper installs it.
6. Raise the cheekpiece until you can't see through the sight. Lower it slowly until the front sight comes into view and is centered. Then stop! Always adjust by coming down from above. That will keep you from lifting your head to compensate.
7. If your stock has a lateral offset adjustment in the butt-plate, move it out at least 1/2" initially and continue to work with it until you are able to bring the rear sight into true alignment with your aiming eye.
8. Revisit the sling adjustment. Loosen and tighten a couple of notches from where you are. Bear in mind that a tight sling that may feel fine for a few minutes can be a real hinderance over a 25-minute string of fire.
9. Keep working at it! Stock adjustments can and will need small changes over time, some permanent, some temporary to adjust to range conditions. The key to the process is developing a finely-tuned sense of what your position feels like when you are shooting well and tuning the stock adjustments to replicate that feeling at any range.
Also there's a very good reply by Tim S right here in TT
Setting up of rifle
Saludos.
-ed
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
I did not mention it earlier but if it matters I use the Estonian (?) position: body at an angle to the line of the rifle and right knee drawn up.Tim S wrote:Jim,
Don't mention it.
To a degree the Length to Handstop determines the height of the position. Shorter often equals higher. Some European shooters manage a very steep left arm with their hand well out under the fore-end, but the butt is usually kept short.
Your Dunlop/Freeland type stocks were built for a lower position, because that was the trend in the '60s and '70s. The butt is a little longer than a European aluminium free rifle, and the buttplate doesn't move so high.
I still say that if the weight of the rifle is on your hand, the handstop/sling aren't correctly adjusted. Normally if the LTH is OK, but the sling is too short, you'll have too much pressure on your shoulder. Yes, your supporting hand may be squished, but the sling will pull the rifle back too hard. Pressure on supporting hand, and none in the shoulder, suggest the LTH is too short, so the rifle sags forwards against the sling.
I didn't mention it previously, but the shape of the handstop can apply excess pressure to the thumb. Most stops today are cylindrical, and not particularly wide. Older stops are often quite wide, and can splay out a smaller hand. Also try to keep the left wrist straight, so the rifle sits on the heel if the hand/base of thumb, not on your palm. It's possible your hand is awkwardly placed, and you're feeling pressure before the sling is tight enough to seat the butt. That's only a thought though.
The hand stop I use is not one of the oversize heavily contoured Freeland types. It's nearly cylindrical and about 40 mm wide and about the same height. Probably a vintage Dunlap design.
I'll run some tests by moving the handstop forward along with sling adjustments and see what happens.
I can lower the position a ways before I get below 30 degrees.
I've never shot a modern rifle with the slim forend but that design appears much more ergonomic than the wide and deep wood stocks.
Thanks again.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Ed
Many thanks for Tim and Salazars set-up information. I will copy and save it.
Jim
Many thanks for Tim and Salazars set-up information. I will copy and save it.
Jim
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Jim,
I'd assumed the normal modified "Estonian".
Ultra-low-profile aluminium stocks aren't everything. Having the bore very close to your hand is good mechanically, for limiting muzzle lift during recoil. But, that slim stock places the sightline too low for most shooters. A lot of shooters with alu stocks also use raiser blocks to lift the sights to a more comfortable height; some adopt a very steep left arm to bring the rifle up, often dropping the left shoulder too. Alu stocks vary in depth, just like wood, but even the deepest are no deeper than an Anschutz 1813, which is fairly shallow for wood.
I'd assumed the normal modified "Estonian".
Ultra-low-profile aluminium stocks aren't everything. Having the bore very close to your hand is good mechanically, for limiting muzzle lift during recoil. But, that slim stock places the sightline too low for most shooters. A lot of shooters with alu stocks also use raiser blocks to lift the sights to a more comfortable height; some adopt a very steep left arm to bring the rifle up, often dropping the left shoulder too. Alu stocks vary in depth, just like wood, but even the deepest are no deeper than an Anschutz 1813, which is fairly shallow for wood.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
You want the butt to make good contact with the shoulder area (for prone really the area around the collar bone); contact reduces rifle movement during loading/recoil, and gives the shooter more feedback about position.aalbert wrote:This a great thread, and am still trying to wrap my head around how my son is positioning himself etc.
How does the butt-plate positioning play into all of this for prone/kneeling/standing.. Is there a general guideline/formula/anecdote on how it should fit and feel?
For prone the plate is normally raised to match the height of the shoulder. The higher the shoulder, the higher the plate. Free Rifles have a greater range of adjustment, and some shooters may cant the plate to cant or straighten the rifle, and/or shift it sideways to bring the sights closer to their eye.
LOP is adjusted so the trigger hand reaches the wrist easily, without stretching or cramping.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
This was my son's first outing with his new to him 1403 (after shooting an Anschutz Junior Achiever for 2 years), so we are still figuring out the new sizing etc. for him... Still working on what works best sling/handstop/butt plate wise for him.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
I'm sure this is a stupid question, but from a non-precision shooter trying to help his son learn, how important is a handstop?
I understand to reach the highest potential it is important to maintain consistent hand placement, but for someone just starting 3P with a sling, is it critical? Is the idea that the handstop allows the shooter to COMPLETELY relax the support hand, rather than gripping the rifle? Is there a benefit of a handstop SEPARATE from the sling mounting point, or is it better to keep them together?
Sorry if I should have posted this in the Youth Shooter forum, but it seemed like a relevant question to this discussion.
marky-d
I understand to reach the highest potential it is important to maintain consistent hand placement, but for someone just starting 3P with a sling, is it critical? Is the idea that the handstop allows the shooter to COMPLETELY relax the support hand, rather than gripping the rifle? Is there a benefit of a handstop SEPARATE from the sling mounting point, or is it better to keep them together?
Sorry if I should have posted this in the Youth Shooter forum, but it seemed like a relevant question to this discussion.
marky-d
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Mark,
The handstop's purpose isn't to relax the hand, it's there for location, so the hand is on the same place. Changing how far your hand reaches, alters the height of the hand and the rifle. Yes, it prevents the hand slipping forwards, but if you need a death-grip to keep your hand still, the sling may be a little slack.
You don't have to use a combined handstop and swivel; although most shooters do. An argument for a separate swivel is that you move the handstop without moving the sling. My first rifle had a separate swivel, and I found it hard to use; when I was initially adjusting the sling and handstop, it was difficult maintaining the correct distance between the two. Had I persevered once the sling was tense, I may have liked it, but I bought a combined unit.
There is another point. A separate swivel is normally placed several inches further away from the hand than in a combined unit. This increases the pressure on the hand. That may be good for keeping the hand still without a stop, but it's not for everyone.
The handstop's purpose isn't to relax the hand, it's there for location, so the hand is on the same place. Changing how far your hand reaches, alters the height of the hand and the rifle. Yes, it prevents the hand slipping forwards, but if you need a death-grip to keep your hand still, the sling may be a little slack.
You don't have to use a combined handstop and swivel; although most shooters do. An argument for a separate swivel is that you move the handstop without moving the sling. My first rifle had a separate swivel, and I found it hard to use; when I was initially adjusting the sling and handstop, it was difficult maintaining the correct distance between the two. Had I persevered once the sling was tense, I may have liked it, but I bought a combined unit.
There is another point. A separate swivel is normally placed several inches further away from the hand than in a combined unit. This increases the pressure on the hand. That may be good for keeping the hand still without a stop, but it's not for everyone.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Coaching/position instruction from photos is tricky. But that said, the butt looks a tad short; see how his trigger hand is half off the grip, and his cheekbone is off the front of the cheekpiece. His left arm could maybe reach further; it may just be the angle of the photo, but his upper arm may be too steep.aalbert wrote:This was my son's first outing with his new to him 1403 (after shooting an Anschutz Junior Achiever for 2 years), so we are still figuring out the new sizing etc. for him... Still working on what works best sling/handstop/butt plate wise for him.
So my twopenn'orth: you could add a spacer into the butt*, and move back the handstop or lengthen the sling. However I also notice that he's lying at a fair angle, not too wide, but not very straight. Instead I'd move the handstop out by 1-2cm/.5-1in, and lengthen the sling a little, and have him rotate to the right around his supporting elbow. A narrower angle won't require such a long butt, as his current position, and puts more bodyweight behind the rifle to absorb recoil.
That should let him extend his left arm properly, and get a more comfortable grip for his right hand.
Obviously stop if he reports pain/discomfort; you don't want to overstrain the shoulder. Also remember the left forearm must be 30°+ from horizontal.
*To add a spacer, loosen the central screw in the buttplate and slide it aside/remove. Loosen the screws at the toe and heel (bottom and top), and pull the base forwards. Slide in the spacer over the screws. Retighten, and replace the buttplate. Anschutz spacers are 3/8in thick. You can use wood shims instead, or slip washers over the screws.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Tim, as always, thanks for your valuable help!
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Tim, thanks as well for the direction.. I am going to try it with him, and see how it goes.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Tim
After reading the set-up instructions from you and German Salazar I suited up, got on the floor and followed them.
I ended up moving the butt plate in, reducing the LOP by 3/4 inch. I also brought the handstop back about 1-1/2 inch.
I was surprised to find these changes put significantly more butt plate pressure into my shoulder. My right had grip/trigger finger position is more relaxed and my right elbow drops naturally to the same spot on the mat. I've had trouble with right elbow placement for some time.
My left (support) elbow is much further back. The butt plate is farther in towards the neck. This positions my cheek higher and farther to the right on the comb of the stock - this may be important for iron sights.
Overall the position feels more stable and natural than what I've been using.
I'm very encouraged by this. Hoping the weather and tasks at home allow me to get to the range tomorrow to try this out.
Best regards.
Jim
After reading the set-up instructions from you and German Salazar I suited up, got on the floor and followed them.
I ended up moving the butt plate in, reducing the LOP by 3/4 inch. I also brought the handstop back about 1-1/2 inch.
I was surprised to find these changes put significantly more butt plate pressure into my shoulder. My right had grip/trigger finger position is more relaxed and my right elbow drops naturally to the same spot on the mat. I've had trouble with right elbow placement for some time.
My left (support) elbow is much further back. The butt plate is farther in towards the neck. This positions my cheek higher and farther to the right on the comb of the stock - this may be important for iron sights.
Overall the position feels more stable and natural than what I've been using.
I'm very encouraged by this. Hoping the weather and tasks at home allow me to get to the range tomorrow to try this out.
Best regards.
Jim
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Jim,
2in+ off the LTH! I'd be interested to see the Before and After. I'm guessing you are squarer to the target and/or a higher?
2in+ off the LTH! I'd be interested to see the Before and After. I'm guessing you are squarer to the target and/or a higher?
Re: Stock Set-up Questions
Tim
Right on both counts - more squared up and higher.
This came about because I'd come to believe my head was too low. Seemed to me a shorter LOP (Length to Grip/LTG as Salazar calls it) would raise my head so I made that change first.
Then moved the hand stop all the way forward and positioned the support hand where it felt comfortable and natural. Then moved the hand stop back to that location.
I never intended to become deeply involved in smallbore. As a result I did not keep notes early on. I seem to recall that my starting point for LTG/LOP and LTH were based on something I was familiar with which were the fixed dimensions of the M14 service rifle.
I had avoided bring the handstop back based on the assumption I'd be riding on the point of the elbow. That turned out not to be the case. The contact point is above the elbow. The support elbow is even with the forward edge of the grip.
I've started having some neck trouble plus knowing I was not looking thru the center of the eye. I have high hopes this change will help those issues and improve my stability and scores.
If this works I'll make before and after photos.
Thanks again.
Jim
Right on both counts - more squared up and higher.
This came about because I'd come to believe my head was too low. Seemed to me a shorter LOP (Length to Grip/LTG as Salazar calls it) would raise my head so I made that change first.
Then moved the hand stop all the way forward and positioned the support hand where it felt comfortable and natural. Then moved the hand stop back to that location.
I never intended to become deeply involved in smallbore. As a result I did not keep notes early on. I seem to recall that my starting point for LTG/LOP and LTH were based on something I was familiar with which were the fixed dimensions of the M14 service rifle.
I had avoided bring the handstop back based on the assumption I'd be riding on the point of the elbow. That turned out not to be the case. The contact point is above the elbow. The support elbow is even with the forward edge of the grip.
I've started having some neck trouble plus knowing I was not looking thru the center of the eye. I have high hopes this change will help those issues and improve my stability and scores.
If this works I'll make before and after photos.
Thanks again.
Jim