Does anyone shoot 60 shot AP using Point of Aim.

[deadeyedick]

Following a discussion at our Club the other day it seems some shooters are moving to point of aim or centre hold for Air Pistol.

I would be curious to hear from members of this forum.

[john bickar]

Yes

[John Marchant]

I used to for many years and then changed to sub 6 o'clock.

[kevinweiho]

For ten meter air pistol, I use the sub 6 o'clock hold. Shooting with firearms and other airguns, I use p.o.a...

[Rover]

"some shooters are moving to point of aim or centre hold for Air Pistol"

Successfully?

[Greg Derr]

Erich Buljung had the best rational for shooting POA , every pistol and event you see the same sight picture. And yes he shot it well, 590 AP in the 1988 Olympics for Silver. Oh and he won Perry that year with all iron sights.

[John Marchant]

It does depend on your eyesight and the amount of lighting that you have on the target. Younger eyes are probably able to get enough of a contrast to see the sights against the black background of the aiming mark, whilst the rest of us need as much visual help and contrast as possible.

[django]

It will good on horisontal side but bad on vertical. You need thinner front sight . 3-3.5 mm. I have try b4. Make my eyes tired.
Now i shoot 6 o clock. I believe sub 6 is superior accuracy than my six. I train some times shoot sub six.

[Scrench]

I think to make aiming in the bullseye area work, you have to aim dead center so that the width of your front sight is exactly the width of the black at it's widest point (which it is with a 5mm blade for me), and vertically split the black exactly in half. So, you are not really aiming with the 10 ring sitting on top of your sights like you would if you were aiming for the bullseye, you are really splitting the black circle in half, horizontally and vertically. Aiming at the bullseye is tough to do and will cause you to wiggle around a lot, but your eyes can instinctively tell you when you've cut a circle in half, with no thought whatsoever. That's what I do. I tried every other variation, including the overwhelmingly popular sub-6, but area aiming is just too vague for me. I want to know exactly where to aim, and there is only one spot on the target where you can actually do it with aid from the target itself. It works for me, and is also the only way you can sight-in a single pistol to use for both 10 meter and silhouette without an unusable amount of hold-over or under in silhouette. Try it, see what you think.

Scrench

[grofteevan]

When I started AP shooting a few months ago, I was ignorant of anything other than POA. I was confounded by how off the sights were on the used IZH I bought.
After my score plateaued, I did a lot of research and broke my technique down. Learned about the 6’ O’clock Hold and was excited to add some points to my score. Unfortunately, using that hold consistently took 10 points off my average!
POA for me, all the way! ( for now )

[wasatch]

Wouldn't POA avoid hitting higher or lower depending on ambient lighting with sub 6 area hold?

Where brighter light 'stops down' the iris such that the black blur diameter appears smaller and shooting high vs. lower light when the iris is open and the black blur diameter appears larger and shoot lower.

[jliston48]

I don't like the term "point-of-aim because there is an assumption that I am aiming at a "point" and I'm not. I treat the black on the target as an aiming "area". I prefer the term, "centre hold". Pedantic, but there you are!

I started shooting ISSF matches and shot "area aim" (at 6 o'çlock between the 1-ring and 7-ring on a 25m precision target) for 30+ years, re-adjusting the rear sight to centre hold for Centre Fire Duelling (as it was called) and also using centre hold for the Rapid Fire match.

I started shooting WA1500 and Service Pistol (Australian match) about 8 years ago all with centre hold.

Thought it crazy to have to make changes in sighting between matches so tried centre hold for everything. The change took some time but now, after about 2 years, I wouldn't change back. Precision scores are definitely better on days when my hold is good.

Advantages are that all handguns are always sighted-in (eg. I can use the standard pistol for rapid fire or the rapid fire pistol for sport pistol without remembering where the sights were) and sight pictures are similar (depending on target shape) - just aim at the centre of the black.

Problem is on dull days or if the sun shines over the butts into my eyes, black-on-black definition is reduced (outdoor events). Not such an issue with indoor air pistol.

Other problem: I coach new members and I think it is good for them to start with "area aim" like the textbooks say - because it is easier to teach trigger control (squeezing while sights are wandering in the aiming area - not jerking when the sights move through the middle of the black).

So it is "do as I say, not as I do".

After a few months or when they gain some competence, I introduce the idea of centre hold for them to try. Then they can decide.

Good coaching tip (any sport): Always be prepared to try something different but it must be a genuine trial. Then evaluate, decide and train hard.

[cuslog]

I shot 6 o'clock hold for many years with fairly good success (for most phases except dueling C.F. or Olympic rapid). I did find it to complicate things, keeping track of how many clicks from 6 o'clock to center hold and back.
Then I laid off bullseye for 20+ years.
Since I've started up again (about a year ago at age 67) I've been using center hold and it "feels" more instinctive to me and its nice to not have to remember how many clicks up or down.
I bought a used air pistol recently and by coincidence the front sight is exactly the same width as the black and have been doing as a couple of the previous posters have described; using the width of the blade to align you horizontally (you have both top corners as references to the outside of the black) and as suggested, the top of the front sight splitting the black in half vertically, just feels natural. I feel like this also forces me to focus better on the front sight -- and bottom line, my scores have improved.

[Gwhite]

My tired old eyes have a real problem with the black-on-black of a center hold, and I think it tends to encourage people to look at the target & lose focus on sight alignment. This is especially true of the big centerfire/sport rapid target with the white stripes.

The collegiate team I help coach has several women who have had success in Sport Pistol Rapid with a 6:00 hold. In theory, you also don't have to lift quite as far, although the difference is tiny. You also typically don't have to move your sights as far from a sub-6 hold which they use for precision.

[Mike M.]

I shot center for a long time, but most of it was outdoors...and with a front sight painted fluorescent orange. I switched to a sub-six when I got onto the International Muzzle-Loading Team, as their rules require either black or white sights.

[David Levene]

I shot center for a long time, but most of it was outdoors...and with a front sight painted fluorescent orange. I switched to a sub-six when I got onto the International Muzzle-Loading Team, as their rules require either black or white sights.

Fluorescent sights are no longer permitted in ISSF either.

[jliston48]

Fluorescent sights are no longer permitted in ISSF either.
[/quote]

David

I realise that this is getting off-topic but...

I had not heard of this.

The ISSF rule is: "Only open sights are allowed. Sights using fiber optic, light enhancing or
reflecting color surfaces are prohibited. Optical, mirror, telescope, laser-beam,
electronically projected dot sights etc. are prohibited"

Are fluorescent painted sights considered as being light enhancing or a reflective color surface?

I sometimes paint the front sight with a matt blue chalk (depending on light conditions). Is this permissible?

[David Levene]

Fluorescent sights are no longer permitted in ISSF either.

Are fluorescent painted sights considered as being light enhancing or a reflective color surface?

I sometimes paint the front sight with a matt blue chalk (depending on light conditions). Is this permissible?
[/quote]
When this rule first came in 2 years ago I had an email "discussion" with Willi Grill, the ISSF Technical Director.

Part of one of his emails 5th January 2017 stated:-
"Well, lets come back about to your question, a normal color , for example like red or white, what is very common can be used, without problem.
The only thing like this special fiber optic or flour color is now not allowed anymore."

For the sake of absolute clarity I replied:-
"I know that others have been discussing this. Am I OK to let them know that, regarding colour, only fluorescent colours are prohibited."

He responded:-
"Yes correct, it would be a nonsens not to allow a simple color which is no advantage, the advantage is comming from fluorescent which is clear. All clear and nice to hear that we mean the same thing."

[Mike M.]

Yup. I used to use poster paint, in the brightest orange I could find. Not the fiber-optic gadgets, just good honest paint.

But this trick works well only in good light. If you are shooting from a covered firing position, it's a whole lot less effective, and I would recommend black sights and a sub-six hold. Although I'd dearly love to try a Guttersnipe-type channel sight for RF, just as an experiment.