TargetTalk

As the title suggests can the old Remy work against the Annies, etc...? I simply do not have several $1000 to spend. I have around a $1000 what would you go with?
Thanks,
JB

P.S 5 foot 10 freshman male shooter. Lots of experience but struggling with equipment at the state level. Just cant keep up with the big spenders as of now.

WHY is he not competitive with the other shooters running Anschutz rifles?

Is it an actual precision issue with the two platforms (ie: What's he shooting now?)

Is it sundry items like better plates, cheekpiece, etc?

Is it an ammo issue?

Is it a sighting system that needs upgraded?


I'm not saying your rifle DOESN'T need replaced, but in regards to your budget, if you cant do some of these things and make the current rifle work, then you're ammo budget ahead.

Too, with regards to your budget, it MAY be better to go with a cheaper rifle as far as cost of entry, and add those other items so that at least the POSITION and AIMING are as close to Anschutz as possible.

Case in point: I once saw a guy take a Daisy 853 to an indoor Offhand match. $100 rifle with a $300 set of sights. Silly, right? After he zeroed for a few 8's, he placed 2nd. Surprised at least a couple people. I reckon some of the parents thought that their kids were shooting near the level of their $3,000 rifle's accuracy. Nobody in the room was.

But he could NOT have done that without having already had a pretty good understanding of what needed upgraded from "box" parts. In that case, it was the sighting system.

well he has a Savage mkii and the problem is that it when we upgraded the stock to the Boyd's "at one" stock we cannot get it to group. The best on bags and a lead sled is a 1.35" at 50yds. It's his 3p rifle. To many variables with the stock not fitting like a glove, as well as the torque sensitivity of the action screws. Don't get me wrong, we will continue work on this rifle but my gut is telling me that we need a better rifle to work with. New to the forum and really appreciate the input. Any advice is welcome , I just appreciate your time.
JB

P.S. the team is competitive and ended up 4th in the state and with a little cleanup would be 2nd luckily this group is young. Literally fix just a couple mistakes would have been second this past year. The winning team just seems to be untouchable and the only thing our group of coaches can come up with is the rifles.

I was able to buy an older Anschutz 1807 with sights for $1200 a year or so ago. Keep an eye out for deals at all the auction houses online

Thauglor wrote:I was able to buy an older Anschutz 1807 with sights for $1200 a year or so ago. Keep an eye out for deals at all the auction houses online

Did it turn out to be a shooter? Will a 22lr burn out a barrel like a centerfire? I understand that it may take many more rounds than a highpower but can it happen?
All to new to this target game and the better equipment.
Thanks,
JB

Justin Bollinger wrote:Will a 22lr burn out a barrel like a centerfire? I understand that it may take many more rounds than a highpower but can it happen?

Typically "no". In centerfire it's the section of the barrel just in front of the chamber that literally gets burned out from the heat of the burning powder. 22LR doesn't contain enough powder to accomplish that feat. And too, bullets are always waxed lead and never jacketed.

But finding a deal on (say for instance) a 1968 Anschutz may not be a winner. When you buy a newer model rifle, you get a lot more than a fresh barrel. You'll get an updated stock, which may be more adjustable and/or ergonomic, and you get the ability to use later model sight sets and sight accessories. And you get a better trigger. The barrel is simply one part of a complex shooting system.

I would go with a 64 anschutz over a rem 541. Better trigger, faster action, better stock. Jmo

You know what the answer to your question is. Do what you hafta do, find the money.

My NRA light rifle is a Savage with the add on Rifle Basix trigger to replace the accutrigger. Properly dialed it should do yoeman service, my rifle shoots very well. In 4p it isnt quite the match for my Anschutz but it will clean a prone target, so its me not the gun...... I found the Boyds stocks shot goofy until I added 1/32 dia carbon fiber pins in verticle holes in the wood and soaked the stock with coat after coat of CA glue to stop the wood from compressing and then bingo, it was a shooter again. Got the rods from a kite store. Use socket head capscrews and hardened radiused washers to bolt it together Glue the washers into the stock with steel filled epoxy with the bare minimum torque to make sure the washer is flat with the bottom of the screw. Simple to do and worth a weekend of fiddling. After all the glue dries, I torque to 36 innch pounds. Ultimately it will close the gap on an Anschutz, im not convinced the Savage will win decimal scoring because at its best, the barell is good enough but the trigger just cant compete. It should be good enough to clean the target if you do your job....

redschietti wrote:You know what the answer to your question is. Do what you hafta do, find the money.

Man, I hate to see this kind of thing. Across the internet, it becomes demeaning and aristocratic.

[Redacted]

Financial responsibility comes in many forms, and one of them is setting an intelligent budget and sticking to it. The best, if less apparent, benefit of this behavior is that his SON will know what his father did to try to balance fiscal responsibility with providing for his son's talent and desire to compete.

That kind of lesson lasts a lot longer than he will be in the 4H Shooting Sports, and truth be known, is a better financial lesson than a lot of 4H provides.




Justin, if you would, shoot me a PM with your number and a time or two in the evening. We'll chat, if you want.

If you already have a 541x, you probably know the stocks are 'not great'. If you don't, take a look at what people expect to get for them, as they're considered 'collectable'.

A real target rifle, like a 64, starts looking like a bargain.

In terms of raw accuracy, it will probably do the job. It's the details that makes it a poor choice, imo. Same goes for the H&R M-12.

If you want to start from scratch, finding a usable stock, sights. etc. , I'd be looking at a CZ long before a 541 or a Savage.

As for barrel life, smallbore rifles typically die from throat wear as well. It's not the powder charge, but the priming compound. And we're talking 100k rds or more, for a master level shooter.

Leaving the financial responsibility part aside, as High Left said most of this discussion is centered on raw accuracy and at the local/state level this is probably fine. Anschutz does not have any corner on the market of 22 rimfire accuracy. Neither does anyone. What makes the biggest equipment difference are the ergonomics of the rifle. This is where position rifles have really developed over the years and it is the fit of the stock that can really make a big difference- way more than this conversation is giving credit for. Even the Anschutz xx07 stocks are crap. Also, a good trigger is very important. So, any given shooter can choose to shoot whatever meets the rules but there is a real handicap in a poor fitting stock.

What is not a bad approach is to buy some form of 54 action anschutz. For a young shooter some sort of xx07 with the lighter barrel. Then watch for some sort of free rifle stock to put on it. This can give an upgrade path that is a little easier to afford.

Pete has it right. Might be stepping on a few toes, but rifles like Savage, CZ, H&R M12, 541X, even old 64 Match, are not in the same league as Anschutz 54's, Walthers and even Win. 52 or Rem. 40X when properly stocked and with good triggers. There are particularly a lot of the older Anschutz 54 models out there and even one with a prone stock is a better choice than a 541X. Except for really early ones, they all have a full length accessory rail, some have adj. cheeekpiece (or you can add one), and the free rifle versions have an adjustable b/p. Ask for some groups shot with the rifle; all will be plenty accurate if the bore is in good condition -- rare to find one with the throat shot out. Look for one with the light 2 stage trigger, it will go down into the lower ounces and I would want one with twin extractors (the oldest ones have a single extractor and they can be a pain to make eject reliably). There are a number of these out there within your budget and there will be even more coming on the market. Bullseye shooting participation is declining and the top shooters want the very latest and all this leaves a lot of the older rifles on the market. You can improve or upgrade the stock when opportunity and funds allow. But the main thing is that you will have a good accurate rifle to work with and build on. There is no feasible way to get to a modern Anschutz/Walther with the limit you have, so just do as good as you can.

Just a thought since you already have the Savage (model FVT?) might be PDC custom's rimfire stock/chassis. Craig has supplied it to many 4-H shooters for competition. You would need to ask him about the results in competition. He produces a very good butt plate/hook assembly for them as well. The hook doesn't appear on the sight but I have one and it works great for me on my CZ 455.
http://www.pdccustom.com/index.php/shop ... s-rimfire/
As has been said, top results in top level competition will be difficult without the painful outlay for top equipment ie: Anschutz, Walther or Feinwerkbau.

High Left wrote:If you already have a 541x, you probably know the stocks are 'not great'. If you don't, take a look at what people expect to get for them, as they're considered 'collectable'.

A real target rifle, like a 64, starts looking like a bargain.

In terms of raw accuracy, it will probably do the job. It's the details that makes it a poor choice, imo. Same goes for the H&R M-12.

If you want to start from scratch, finding a usable stock, sights. etc. , I'd be looking at a CZ long before a 541 or a Savage.

As for barrel life, smallbore rifles typically die from throat wear as well. It's not the powder charge, but the priming compound. And we're talking 100k rds or more, for a master level shooter.

No sir, we have not already purchased anything new. Really trying to get the most bang for our buck.

beye wrote:Pete has it right. Might be stepping on a few toes, but rifles like Savage, CZ, H&R M12, 541X, even old 64 Match, are not in the same league as Anschutz 54's, Walthers and even Win. 52 or Rem. 40X when properly stocked and with good triggers. There are particularly a lot of the older Anschutz 54 models out there and even one with a prone stock is a better choice than a 541X. Except for really early ones, they all have a full length accessory rail, some have adj. cheeekpiece (or you can add one), and the free rifle versions have an adjustable b/p. Ask for some groups shot with the rifle; all will be plenty accurate if the bore is in good condition -- rare to find one with the throat shot out. Look for one with the light 2 stage trigger, it will go down into the lower ounces and I would want one with twin extractors (the oldest ones have a single extractor and they can be a pain to make eject reliably). There are a number of these out there within your budget and there will be even more coming on the market. Bullseye shooting participation is declining and the top shooters want the very latest and all this leaves a lot of the older rifles on the market. You can improve or upgrade the stock when opportunity and funds allow. But the main thing is that you will have a good accurate rifle to work with and build on. There is no feasible way to get to a modern Anschutz/Walther with the limit you have, so just do as good as you can.

Anschutz 54? That's why I am here. So many variations to sort through. My son shoots standard light rifle 3p 50 yards. I see so many rifles and get overwhelmed what i am looking for. I know there are some good deals out there but don't want to purchase the wrong thing. Of course he can only shoot peeps and i see so many different barrel lengths as well. Sight Radius is important, but what would be acceptable? Some good examples would really help.

massrog wrote:Just a thought since you already have the Savage (model FVT?) might be PDC custom's rimfire stock/chassis. Craig has supplied it to many 4-H shooters for competition. You would need to ask him about the results in competition. He produces a very good butt plate/hook assembly for them as well. The hook doesn't appear on the sight but I have one and it works great for me on my CZ 455.
http://www.pdccustom.com/index.php/shop ... s-rimfire/
As has been said, top results in top level competition will be difficult without the painful outlay for top equipment ie: Anschutz, Walther or Feinwerkbau.

I checked it out and sure might be an option. Looks intriguing. We will see.
Thanks,
JB

Personally, I went the Modell 54 Anschutz route for my son. I cannot comment on its success in competition, as my son is not to that level yet. However, here are a few notes on my experience:

I bought my 54 off GunBroker for significantly UNDER your $1000 -- roughly half of the other prices quoted so far on this thread. I bought from Duffy's Guns, and he regularly has several older Anschutz on there for budget prices. Mine is an older 'XX07' model (I believe early '70s) and the stock is not as beautiful, modern, or adjustable as more expensive guns, but it works great. As my son grows, I intend to upgrade the stock, either by adding adjustments or replacing it. The rifle is new enough to have the double extractors, as was mentioned, and the bore is great too.

There was a previous comment about not accepting "later model sights", but I'm not sure what he is referring to. I have no complaints about the sights that came on my rifle. Nor the trigger. Keep in mind that there is a very wide spectrum of shooters on this forum, from recreational beginners to Olympic athletes, so sometimes it is difficult to calibrate the feedback you receive. I fall somewhere in the middle, probably more toward the recreational end.

So what about other options? The difficulty I am finding is that the ONLY new rifle that seems to be available with target sights (or can be easily added), under ~$1500, is the Savage FVT (Mark I or II). I would love to pick up a CZ, for example, but buying sights and having a gunsmith mount them quickly puts it into elevated financial territory for me. On the flip side, I don't like the stock on the Savage, but have a hard time swallowing the cost of putting on a new stock that costs as much as the rifle!

As such, I view the Savage as a 'stepping stone' -- use it as-is until the shooter exceeds its capabilities, then move to something like an Anschutz (rather than spending money on upgrading the Savage). But every wallet and personality is different.

marky-d

Justin Bollinger wrote: Anschutz 54? That's why I am here. So many variations to sort through. My son shoots standard light rifle 3p 50 yards. I see so many rifles and get overwhelmed what i am looking for. I know there are some good deals out there but don't want to purchase the wrong thing. Of course he can only shoot peeps and i see so many different barrel lengths as well. Sight Radius is important, but what would be acceptable? Some good examples would really help.

Justin,

This thread should help to explain Match 54 nomenclature, at least for the target series: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=34790

Sporters are a different kettle of fish.

For 3/4-Position shooting, avoid the xx11 Prone rifles. These won't balance as well as the Standard and Supermatch rifles in Standing, due to the combination of barrel length/weight and stock shape.

As for sight radius, Anschutz have used two length barrels since the early 1960s, 26in and 27.2in. The whole barrel/action is 32-33in, so the sight radius is somewhere between 30 and 36in depending on eye relief. The difference in aiming precision between the two barrels is very small, if even noticeable. Sight radius can easily vary between shooters by 1in anyway just through eye relief. More importantly the longer 27.2in barrel is nearly 1lb heavier. For some that's good, for others it's not; it depends on the shooter.

If you really need a longer sight radius, fit an aluminium extension tube to the muzzle - but this is not something that beginners really do need.

natdscott wrote: Financial responsibility comes in many forms, and one of them is setting an intelligent budget and sticking to it.

+1