TargetTalk

Looks like the top of the line one, the LP500 Meister Manufaktur is pretty pricey at $2400ish, while the cheapest one, the LP500 Economy, runs around $1500ish.

The million dollar question is: Will the rest of the competitors follow suit with carbon fiber reinforced plastic for their compressed air cylinders?

I certainly hope not as SCBA tanks have a finite life of 5 years for filament wound tanks.

Present tanks have a "life" of 10 years now, and many are getting old even before being sold.

I wonder if the "new" tanks will be cheap enough to discard at five years, or is that just another useless estimate?

Rover wrote:Present tanks have a "life" of 10 years now, and many are getting old even before being sold.

I wonder if the "new" tanks will be cheap enough to discard at five years, or is that just another useless estimate?

And what happens when Walther decides it was all a mistake & stops making new cylinders?

This is a big reason I don't recommend buying from an air pistol manufacturer that keeps changing their cylinder designs every couple years. Steyr keeps updating their pistols, but the basic cylinder design has been unchanged for a very long time. Having a carbon fiber cylinder is mostly an expensive gimmick. It might give you a tiny bit more flexibility in terms of adjusting the weight & balance of the pistol, but you can do pretty much the same with a compact cylinder. Morini & Steyr have been doing just fine at major competitions for a long time with plain old aluminum cylinders.

Gwhite wrote:And what happens when Walther decides it was all a mistake & stops making new cylinders?

Here’s Walther’s facebook publication describing their new cylinders:

LP500 - impressively different
Cylinder CARBON
Carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic (CFRP) is a material that Walther has successfully used in its sporting arms for many years. Its high strength and low weight make it ideal for components that must take a lot of stress. For the first time, Walther has succeeded in taking advantage of these characteristics for the new COMPOSITE compressed air cylinder.
The advantages:
Service life: 20 years (maximum)
Weight: 20% less than for comparable aluminum cylinders
Shooting characteristics: vibration damping
Safety: Walther subjects each cylinder to its HIGH PRESSURE test process to ensure maximum safety

Only time will tell if there are any defects.

A "service life" of 20 years is largely meaningless if outside regulators (like the ISSF) insist that cylinders are only good for 10. Hammerli & Morini both sold cylinders with a service life of 20 years, and they are "banned" by the stupid ISSF rules. There are plenty of people who will tell you that all aluminum cylinders are unsafe after 10 years, but they don't know what they are talking about.

In addition, it still doesn't solve the problem of Walther constantly changing their designs and obsoleting old ones. If they GUARANTEED that they would continue to produce the cylinders for the next 30 years, that would be different. In another 5 years, they could suddenly decide that Titanium is the only way to go, and stop making the carbon fiber cylinders. That, or they may decide that a different cylinder geometry or valve is needed, and you could be out of luck again.

Besides, who said a light pistol is a big improvement? I can't stand light pistols. The first thing I've had to do to all my air guns is add weight to make them more stable.

Carbon fiber is more likely a marketing gimmick than anything else. If Walther's air gun designs are so superior, where are the Olympic medals?

Gwhite wrote:
Carbon fiber is more likely a marketing gimmick than anything else. If Walther's air gun designs are so superior, where are the Olympic medals?

Superior design is not the only criterion for Olympic Medals ... I think superior salesmanship by the manufacturers plays a role surely .

Top pistols are all capable of Gold Medal performance . Top shooters choose ( for their own reasons ) what guns to compete with .

Carbon Fiber cylinders may well be a sales gimmick ( like digital gages on Morini cylinders ) . Time will tell .

Gwhite wrote:Besides, who said a light pistol is a big improvement? I can't stand light pistols. The first thing I've had to do to all my air guns is add weight to make them more stable.

Carbon fiber is more likely a marketing gimmick than anything else. If Walther's air gun designs are so superior, where are the Olympic medals?

Marketing gimmick or not, you have to give Walther some credit for using different materials to innovate air cylinders.

A fair comparison would be the Glock pistol that was introduced more than three decades ago. Many people had serious doubts that a “plastic gun” would be better than an all steel gun. Today, Glock is a proven handgun used by millions of people around the world, all other firearm manufacturers followed suit and have introduced their versions of polymer handguns.

I also have the mentality that a lighter air pistol can be remedied by adding more weight, but a heavy pistol is more of a problem if you cannot adjust and distribute the weight to your liking.

As for medals, the majority of people at the Olympics use Steyr and Morini, only a few use Walther. I think that’s the main reason why Walther has a low medal count.

kevinweiho wrote:As for medals, the majority of people at the Olympics use Steyr and Morini, only a few use Walther. I think that’s the main reason why Walther has a low medal count.

Which is the chicken, and which is the egg? If the top shooters can (presumably) shoot any pistol they want, why do they all stick to shooting Steyr & Morini?

Time will tell, but I'm not going to buy a Walther. Not for that kind of money, and not for an unnecessary & expensive technology.

The track record of customer service undermines the Glock vs. Walther comparison.
Whatever you think of them, Glock stands behind their products, even to the point of supplying a replacement frame with the same serial number should the old one get damaged.
A quick search of "Walther free pistol circuit board" should be a sufficient reminder that Walther has no problem leaving their customers (read: guinea pigs) high and dry with zero support as gratitude for supporting their endeavors into "innovative" products.

One other thought: what risk or investment do high level competitors assume in using something like the LP500?
Their assumption is likely that they'll be on to something else in a few years anyways. If something does go wrong during the short period of time they use the product, they'll have access to a level of customer service that the average consumer doesn't receive.
Besides, (and this is pure speculation, not an accusation) do they even have to pay for using this stuff, or is there some sort of endorsement arrangement?
These are some things that folks often miss when they choose to buy a product based on what Joe Blow used to win some medal.

Best Regards,
Jim

My thoughts -

Me want.

Me want now !

I saw live the lp500 in Gyor (European Champs). But not tried to shoot.
Interchangeable trigger mech/elec. sounds sexy. Tried dry firing elec. trigger (designed by Khadjibekov Artem) and I didn't like it. Something shakes and wobbles in the pistol frame during the click. May be someone find it superior.
And these screaming chromed signs ...like hopeless scream "please buy me... i have no advantages but I have big chromed signs". I would remove it if I was Walther.

i will never buy any walther air pistol. I had bad experience with their product lp400.

personally i don't like light pistol. It will get worst on competition when adrenaline rush strike.

electronic trigger wont help much. I have ster lp10 manual and morini electronic. i know it.

We've all seen evidence of "planned obsolescence" with a lot of products.
I don't know the answer, but I do have a question.....

Did Walther plan the new LP500 so the new frame and new carbon cylinders are mutually compatible with those of previous alloy models, such as the LP400? (ie: kinda like the Nikon SLR lens mount)

Or, did they design them to be mutually exclusive?
If the latter, I wonder when support for the older models is cut...

Just a thought,
Jim

"quote"
In addition, it still doesn't solve the problem of Walther constantly changing their designs and obsoleting old ones. If they GUARANTEED that they would continue to produce the cylinders for the next 30 years, that would be different. In another 5 years, they could suddenly decide that Titanium is the only way to go, and stop making the carbon fiber cylinders. That, or they may decide that a different cylinder geometry or valve is needed, and you could be out of luck again."quote".

But if Walther made all their 'new' cylinders (made of whatever) with the same interface and dimensions , to screw on to their pistols , there would be no problem when they switch from alu to carbon to titanium .

Elmas

Umarex, which is the parent company of Walther, obviously believes in innovating their way into the marketplace. If Walther was a better run company, they likely would have more stable designs that were 'incrementally innovated'. But then, that business model didn't seem to work for Walther. Product quality and customer support are more important than innovation for most customers, myself included.

Regarding the composite air cylinder, a composite overwrap pressure vessel (COPV) uses an aluminum shell for gas containment and a composite (fiberglass, carbon fiber) over wrap for strength. Both technologies are well established, but combining the two is not. The main problem is inspection and certification for this new(er) pressure vessel technology. Having a composite air cylinder that is interchangeable with an aluminum air cylinder is an incremental innovation.

Bought the LP500 today. This were my first 5 shots :)

CamelNL wrote:Bought the LP500 today. This were my first 5 shots :)

So, what do you think ?

elmas

kevinweiho wrote: Marketing gimmick or not, you have to give Walther some credit for using different materials to innovate air cylinders.

There is nothing innovative about using carbon fiber for the air cylinder. The original Hammerli 480 had a carbon fiber air cylinder, and it was quickly replaced with aluminum on the 480K and all their following models.