Problem with leaking Baikal IZH-46m pistol

[zamuel_a]

Hi,

I got a while ago a used IZH-46m pistol, which according to the previous owner had only been shot around 100 times and the condition on it was like new.
I shot about 50 shoots without any problems but after that it sometimes leaks. It doesn't happen every time so I don't know what it is. I have searched around on the net and found similar experiences from others, but not been able to find any solutions.

I can compress the air without problems, but when I press down the bolt lever (cock, nr 57 in drawings) it start to leak. If I'm fast and press it all the way down so I can fire the gun, it's not so much of a problem since most of the air didn't get out, but if I leave it open, all air goes out.
I tried to take it apart and removed all old grease from the valve assembly and used pengunoil on the parts, but it didn't help. Same problem, BUT now at two occasions the gun fired as soon as I pressed down the cock lever, without me toucing the trigger! Very dangerous! What could cause it to fire without the trigger? I guess if all air leaks out as soon as I press the cock lever down it's the same as pulling the trigger.

I tried after this different trigger adjustments, but nothing helped.

One thing I noticed when I took it apart is that part nr 17 - valve stem can be inserted in two ways. The top and bottom looks different, but I can't see anywere which side is the correct to have up / down.

[Lenny]

I had a leak like that and fixed it by replacing the valve seal. It had tiny cracks. I will try to find the thread.
It only leaked air. Otherwise everything functioned ok. Maybe you didn't reassemble it correctly.

[Lenny]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=48442

[CWB]

This might be of some help on the leaks: http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/04/ ... 46-part-2/

Maintenance first
A ton of rumors have been written about how the seals in the 46 are somehow weak. Nothing could be further from the truth, but when kitchen-table hobby airgunsmiths open one up, they find a level of complexity they weren’t anticipating. You don’t change the seal to get a 46 shooting. You simply pump it – the right way!

Getting them working again
I have taken non-working guns and, through simple lubrication with Crosman Pellgunoil, gotten them shooting at or above the rated velocity in about 30 minutes. After watching me pump and shoot their guns repeatedly until they worked, the members of my club stopped having problems with their pistols. All you have to do is lubricate and exercise the seals until they’re flexible once more. I have to do the same thing with my own pistol every time I start shooting it again, because it sits around for 12 months at a time without being shot.

What kind of oil did I use? Crosman Pellgunoil! Will the synthetic oil your brother-in-law’s company uses to lubricate swimming pool heater pumps work as a substitute? Who the heck knows. But, Pellgunoil works every time.

Storing the gun
Never store the pistol with the breech closed. Always leave tension off the breech seal, which is the most sensitive seal on the gun. My own gun is 11 years old, has fired thousands of shots and still works well, because I never stored it with the breech closed.

Not sure about the trigger. As you say, potentially very dangerous. Are there two separate stages to the trigger pull and is there a decent weight to them (i.e. not feather light)?

Chris

[zamuel_a]

I had a leak like that and fixed it by replacing the valve seal. It had tiny cracks. I will try to find the thread.
It only leaked air. Otherwise everything functioned ok. Maybe you didn't reassemble it correctly.

Which part did you replace? Nr 32? The leak must be caused by either 32, 13, 9 or 17. Everything is fine until I press the cock down, which will remove the pressure on part 17 and cause the leak. Sometimes I can just hear a small fizz sound for a few seconds and after that it stops. Sometimes more air goes out and sometimes everything works. Were were a lot of grease in 32 and the other parts, but removing it and use pengunoil didn't help.

[Lenny]

I had a leak like that and fixed it by replacing the valve seal. It had tiny cracks. I will try to find the thread.
It only leaked air. Otherwise everything functioned ok. Maybe you didn't reassemble it correctly.

Which part did you replace? Nr 32? The leak must be caused by either 32, 13, 9 or 17. Everything is fine until I press the cock down, which will remove the pressure on part 17 and cause the leak. Sometimes I can just hear a small fizz sound for a few seconds and after that it stops. Sometimes more air goes out and sometimes everything works. Were were a lot of grease in 32 and the other parts, but removing it and use pengunoil didn't help.

Part #31. It's a rubber seal that hardened over the years and developed hairline cracks around the center hole. From what I remember, I had to take out the whole assembly, 30, 31, 32, 13, 9, 17 to get to that seal. I couldn't fish it out with a paper clip as described in dis-assembly instructions from Pilk.
I had to drive out a pin, to get some of these parts to come out. Other than that, the instructions are very good.

[zamuel_a]

Thanks for the information! I have to try and get to that seal. I did get parts 13, 9, 17 out but seems more tricky to get to 30, 31, 32. I guess they all must get out?
What about part nr 17. It doesn't look the same on the top as on the bottom but which side should be up and which down?
It looks on the drawing that the seal 31 is deeper inside than the other valve parts so don't understand how it can leak from it in this case. It's when I move the cock down so the preassure on nr 17 loosen up that it start to leak, but maybe the valve (9) get's so deep so it's in contact with that seal.

Did you have the same problem that sometimes it doesn't leak. Sometimes it only give a small fizz sound and others a lot of air comes out.

[Gwhite]

This thread has some info about seal replacement, including how to go about it from the rear:

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... ck#p214944

I've made one of the seal replacement tools, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I had an email discussion with someone who used this approach successfully without making the tool. I think they found an appropriate sized ball point pen to use as a seating tool.

[Lenny]

Thanks for the information! I have to try and get to that seal. I did get parts 13, 9, 17 out but seems more tricky to get to 30, 31, 32. I guess they all must get out?
What about part nr 17. It doesn't look the same on the top as on the bottom but which side should be up and which down?
It looks on the drawing that the seal 31 is deeper inside than the other valve parts so don't understand how it can leak from it in this case. It's when I move the cock down so the preassure on nr 17 loosen up that it start to leak, but maybe the valve (9) get's so deep so it's in contact with that seal.

Did you have the same problem that sometimes it doesn't leak. Sometimes it only give a small fizz sound and others a lot of air comes out.

Yes, it would leak sometimes and other times it would not. It wasn't a big leak. I would hear it leaking and could still fire the gun.
I am not 100% positive, I took out #30 to get to the seal. I definitely took out #32. From what I remember the seal(#31) was sandwiched between 30 & 32. Once you start disassembling, you will see if 30 needs to come out. You will also see which cross pin you need to drive out to get these parts out.
From what you describe, it does sound #17 is inserted the wrong way. That could cause the problem with premature firing when you close the gate. I remember the difference between the two sides on that part, but don't remember which side goes up. Maybe you can figure it out by looking at the larger parts drawing. I will see if I can later in the day.

[zamuel_a]

How do I get the bushing (part 32) out? I read somewhere that I need to remove the pin that is below the output hole, but it's not like it's loose after that. There isn't really anything to get hold on if it needs a lot of force to pull it out and I don't want to use a pliers and damage it.

[Lenny]

How do I get the bushing (part 32) out? I read somewhere that I need to remove the pin that is below the output hole, but it's not like it's loose after that. There isn't really anything to get hold on if it needs a lot of force to pull it out and I don't want to use a pliers and damage it.

From what I remember, it wasn't difficult to remove once the cross-pin was out. I think I used a bent paper clip or maybe a punch.

[zamuel_a]

I tried to grip it with pliers and pulled as much as I could but it didn't come out. I removed the pin that is just below the port hole. The other pins seems to hold the trigger assembly so it must have been the correct one.

[Lenny]

Did you also disassemble the front of the pistol according to pilk instructions? I remember it was necessary. Try pushing 32 forward, the whole group 32, 31, 30 may come out forward. Don't use pliers.

[zamuel_a]

No I didn't disassembly the forward since I read this was not necessary (and would be very difficult to do). With a special tool it should be possible to get the seal installed from the back after the bushing is out.


A bit down on this thread is a PDF showing a simple tool to make it possible to install the seal from the rear, but the bushing must come out. I can't figure out how since it is stuck when I try to pull on it.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... ck#p214944

[Lenny]

I read about that tool and taking the seal out from the rear. I also read it was very difficult to do. That's not the route I followed. I did the dis-assembly exactly as described in pilk instructions. Front and rear. The only difference is where it says to use a hook made from paper clip to pull out 31 & 30 from the front end of the gun. 31 & 30 wasn't coming out, until I drove out the cross pin and removed 32, 31, 30. So the way to remove 32 is most likely forward. I did this about 18 month ago. It's hard to recollect little details, but it's coming back now.

[zamuel_a]

From what I read, removing the cylinder is the worst part and that's why it is easier to do it from the rear, but it seems impossible to get the bush out.

[Lenny]

From what I read, removing the cylinder is the worst part and that's why it is easier to do it from the rear, but it seems impossible to get the bush out.

That's correct. Removing the cylinder was the hardest part. I grinded off the end from the Philips screwdriver to make a tool that will go through the holes to unscrew the cylinder. I also had to apply heat (not too much) to brake the bond. It didn't take a lot of force to get it moving. I was pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem was with the packing seal (part #35). It was different from what came in my pack of replacement seals. The original was flat, but replacement was like a typical O-ring. It didn't fit. I think there were different versions of Izh-46M. I had to reassemble with an old packing seal. It's not a moving part that will wear. It just sits there to prevent air leak between the two parts. I lubricated it well with pellgun oil and it held up. No leaks.
Since you bought this gun used, there is also a possibility it was modified in that area. Someone who goes by the name Mac1 or some such did modifications to IZH-46M to accept standard airgun seals. This is just a possibility.

[zamuel_a]

How did you put the cylinder back on? Is it just pressed on or is there something like loctite on it as well? Is it screwed on so there are threds on it or just pressed? I don't have a torch but a heat gun, if that's enough.

Had been nice to get to know how to do it from the rear since it feels so much easier to do.

[Lenny]

The cylinder is threaded, it screws into receiver and secured by a cross pin. There is no loctite. The reason you need heat to break it loose is the dried up oil and dieseling effect that makes it act like glue. If you decide to disassemble it, preserve the packing seal (#35). Chances are you will need to reuse it. Also, when reassembling the cylinder, make sure the seal (#35) doesn't squeeze out towards the center. Go back and forth, to make sure it stays in it's place.
If you are still trying to do it from the rear, check again whats holding #32. Maybe you need to push something out of the way to get it to come out. If people say this can be done from the back, there is no way to do it without taking out #32.

[zamuel_a]

I would guess #32 is pressed in so it isn't loose and it wouldn't be a problem if I can press it out from the other side. But pulling is not so easy to do. There isn't anything to grab. I removed one pin and I can't see that there is anything else. I drenched it in wd-40 and let it sit for a while in case it would help. I used pliers and tried to pull as much as I dared, but nothing happened.