TargetTalk

So I bought a used 1907 is a 1914 stock for 3P. So far I love everything about it but have noticed one thing. It appears it needs about 10 shots to warm up before it starts shooting well. I've not even been cleaning the barrel as I know most people think they shoot better without cleaning. I've heard of people talk about fouling shots but I thought that was to season the barrel after cleaning.

When its stone cold it shoots about 1" at 50 yards, after 10 shots it tightens up to .5" or less. I shot a few .250" groups today with various ammos.

zanemoseley wrote: I've not even been cleaning the barrel as I know most people think they shoot better without cleaning.

"Most people" are wrong.

The rifle manufacturer's advice is to clean after shooting. The ammunition makers say the same.

Definitely wrong. If it takes that many shots to stabilize maybe you need to JB the throat to clean out the carbon ring.

My Annies start each session with a clean bore. The first shot at 100 yards will be an inch to an inch and a half high, some left some right, except for one 1913 that will be close. The chronograph shows the first round in a cold clean bore is hot. The second is good enough to correct for zero. The rifle has stabilized before the four or five shots it takes me to settle down.

Mark

Yes some barrels need a few shots from clean and cold to group satisfactorily. The best explanation I've heard for this, is that those initial shots exerience greater friction, so don't accelerate at the same speed, and exit the muzzle at a different (sub optimal) point in its vibration. Once there is sufficient grease in the bore, normal grouping resumes. My barrels settle quickly (and at 25 yards immediately), so it's a minor inconvenience, but to me, one that is preferable to not cleaning, as I believe the fouling contributes to barrel wear, especially the primer residue.

I know of high mileage barrels that take many many fouling shots after cleaning, but I suspect the fouling is filling in erosion in the throat. With lower grade sporting rifles I'd imagine the fouling has to compensate for looser thoats and greater variation in bore diameter.

Where a barrel always throws the first shot from cold, whether it's clean or dirty, conventional wisdom suggests there is stress in the bedding or barrel breeching, that is relieved by shooting.

"It appears it needs about 10 shots to warm up before it starts shooting well."

It usually takes me about fifteen. Let's not forget the human factor.

Tim S wrote: Where a barrel always throws the first shot from cold, whether it's clean or dirty, conventional wisdom suggests there is stress in the bedding or barrel breeching, that is relieved by shooting.

Tim, No stress in my bedding; I pillar and glass them myself. What do you mean by stress in the barrel breeching? Bolt lockup?

The chronograph numbers from this morning tell the story. Stress didn't make the first round hot.

1092
1046
1041
1038
...

A testing session last year
1090
1052
1059
...

Well it's not just the first shots, if I shoot some then leave it for 30 minutes or something it seems to take a bit to warm up again. However you guys talked me into cleaning the bore well, I've got some foaming bore cleaner I'll give a shot.

I just want to get this all figured out before my first match this year, I have enough to to overcome without worrying about if my bore will be shooting right or not. This rifle looked to be in good shape when I got it but honestly I have no specific round count, found be 5000 or 20000 who knows.

On a side note I don't have a bore guide yet. Which one do you guys use?

I do have a buddy with a chronograph so perhaps I should see what the velocities are behind my "warm up".

I prefer Champion Choice's metal version to the plastic.

Mark

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... &item=CC40

Also what do you mean by JB the throat.

JB Bore Paste - work the area in front of the chamber throat.

Mark

Well I cleaned the barrel well tonight, we'll see if that affects the cold bore shooting.

So you use the JB on the first couple inches in front of the chamber right? What do you use, a bronze brush?

Use a cotton patch to apply and work the JB. Then wash out the bore with Hoppe's.

After each shooting session I run a dry patch to remove the carbon, make five or six one way passes with a bronze brush soaked with Hoppe's, then run two patches to dry the bore; working the throat a little with the last patch. I wear surgical gloves to keep the solvent out of the body.

Mark

patriot wrote:

Tim S wrote: Tim, No stress in my bedding; I pillar and glass them myself.

Sorry,that comment wasn't aimed at you, as you start with a clean barrel. I mean the cold bore shot that happens when dirty, clean, or even after a short break when shooting. My university club had a 1903 that would pitch the first shot 1in high and left at 25 yards!

Zane, I don't know your location. If you are in a northern climate and have been shooting on a cold morning outdoors, this could be your culprit or part of it. Bullet lube is pretty stiff when the ammo and the rifle are cold and when shooting prone in this situation, I usually have to run about 10 rds or so down any of my rifles before the groups seem to stabilize. I theorize that this is what it takes to get the barrel interior up to a temp. where the lube viscosity is somewhat stable and lube is distributed well throughout the barrel. After setting 20 min. between matches, I have to fire a few rounds to warm it up again. This happens in several rifles that normally don't need such warm up shots in warmer weather, just the usual few shots to foul a clean barrel.

My first rifle, an 1813, gave me loads of issues with throwing shots and settling down (or not) after cleaning that took me ages to work out what was going on. After taking it to a gunsmith and borescoping it we worked out the barrel was fairly leaded up. The only way to remove the lead was to polish it out (lead being softer than steel) with VFG blue paste. After about three hours of this only then could you see that the barrel was in fact pitted and junk!

I now shoot a 1913 that I clean before and after every session. The first round is always louder (and high) with a crack as its closer to the speed of sound. Then after three more sighters it's fine. I'm convinced after seeing the damage in my first barrel that more harm than good comes from not cleaning a .22. When you put your rifle away dirty you're leaving moisture from the combustion, soot and nasty melted primer compound in the barrel. The moisture will absorb into the soot and corrode the steel underneath, and the primer compound will go rock hard (being made from glass). After cleaning I oil the barrel internally to prevent corrosion and then dry patch it before shooting again. I've come to the conclusion that .22 shooting is all about consistancy and the only repeatable constant regarding the barrel is to shoot from clean every time.

I suspect that your first 10 plus shots are only slowly removing all the old hard crud in the barrel from your last visit, and replacing it with warm fluid wax from the new ammo. I doubt it has anything to do with barrel temp as you'd expect to loose accuracy with a warm barrel as it expands. My advice would be to give it a damn good clean, maybe even with the VFG paste (I still do this once a year), and then see how it performs. As a side note some of Eley's test barrels have over 150,000 rounds through them and they're still performing, I believe they keep them clean. I dont think its actually possible to wear a .22 barrel out through shooting rather only damage caused by corrosion.

Just my 2p worth.

Would this article be relevant? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3944560/

Quote from Bryan

'I now shoot a 1913 that I clean before and after every session. The first round is always louder (and high) with a crack as its closer to the speed of sound. Then after three more sighters it's fine. I'm convinced after seeing the damage in my first barrel that more harm than good comes from not cleaning a .22. When you put your rifle away dirty you're leaving moisture from the combustion, soot and nasty melted primer compound in the barrel. The moisture will absorb into the soot and corrode the steel underneath, and the primer compound will go rock hard (being made from glass). After cleaning I oil the barrel internally to prevent corrosion and then dry patch it before shooting again. I've come to the conclusion that .22 shooting is all about consistancy and the only repeatable constant regarding the barrel is to shoot from clean every time.'

The near supra-sonic, high first shot is my experience, too, and I clean my barrel every time.

The glass in the primer is a nasty thought but I had heard that there was less (or none) of this in some manufacturers' ammunition than others, Eley ammo being particularly full of it. Is this correct or am I deluding myself in going for only RWS and Lapua?

Tim S wrote:Would this article be relevant? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3944560/

Interesting article, Tim. In normal temperatures such as the test was conducted in (12C), I don't see any POI change during a string of fire after a fouling shot or two. When it's really cold, around 1C and less is when it takes a number of shots to foul a clean barrel completely. This is why I suspect that the interior of the barrel has to warm up enough to make the lube act as it should in normal temperatures. After such fouling, I no longer see any POI change during the string of fire. However, if it sets out in the cold for the specified 20 min. between matches with the bolt open (a usual requirement), a few shots are needed again before actually firing a round for a serious sighter. I have several prone rifles and none of them require such fouling during normal temperatures -- perhaps above 2-3C. These are all rifles with good barrels in them (some premium aftermarket and some factory) that I religiously clean and inspect regularly with a borescope. Perhaps not many people shoot outdoors in cold weather or perhaps they use ammo with a different lube. I shoot only Eley.

Here is a link to a good video set regarding using bore paste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPzrAfemIE
Time and patience are the keys here with this stuff.
A good thing to plan for when you're gonna watch a NASCAR race on the weekend.
I use the VFG felts with this process.

Each of my rifles gets one, good hard cleaning with this a year with some guns getting two.
Once after Nationals and then once again before the December/January matches depending if they have had lots of rounds thru them ... NCAA shooters versus club/4-H shooters.

If I take them to Mesa for lot testing, I give them a good cleaning as above and then put 10-15 rounds thru them just before I take them to Nammo to test. I'm within an easy drive there so I can easily do this the day before.