Recoil and butt plate height
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Recoil and butt plate height
Am I right in thinking that for prone shooting ideally the centre of the butt plate, so far as possible, ought to be in line with the centre of the barrel so as to mitigate the effects of recoil? Or does it make not much difference? What do international shooters do in this regard? And would such an alignment cause any problems with the rest of the position or the angle of elevation of the barrel? Grateful as always for the experience and advice of others.
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
In the prone, with a sling, you have a basically two strong points of control on the rifle and two weak touch points. The sling attachment point, your firing hand grip (weak), your head on the cheek piece (weak) and where the butt meets your shoulder pocket. The firing hand should be able to completely let go and you should be able to raise your head off the rifle and still maintain total control over the rifle using the sling and butt pressure.
Having the barrel in line with the butt in line with your shoulder allows the recoil to be more directly pushed into your body with less muzzle climb, but this doesn't matter as long as you come back to natural point of aim at the end of the recoil cycle. Your elbows on the ground need to stay in the same place, and you take the push naturally and come back onto target. With a rimfire this isn't hard at all to do, when you get to High Power even an AR-15 will give you enough of a push to make you need good form, and forget about staying on target with a Garand or M1A during the recoil cycle, it just ain't happening :)
So if you put the butt plate height higher, and you aren't craning your neck to see the sights, and it helps you come back into NPA on target better, that is what you should do. But what is more important is that you feel comfortable and have a good NPA, and if the butt plate is a little off the line of bore, that's ok. The only thing that matters at the end of the match is whether or not you had fun, and whether or not you achieved your goals.
Jimro
Having the barrel in line with the butt in line with your shoulder allows the recoil to be more directly pushed into your body with less muzzle climb, but this doesn't matter as long as you come back to natural point of aim at the end of the recoil cycle. Your elbows on the ground need to stay in the same place, and you take the push naturally and come back onto target. With a rimfire this isn't hard at all to do, when you get to High Power even an AR-15 will give you enough of a push to make you need good form, and forget about staying on target with a Garand or M1A during the recoil cycle, it just ain't happening :)
So if you put the butt plate height higher, and you aren't craning your neck to see the sights, and it helps you come back into NPA on target better, that is what you should do. But what is more important is that you feel comfortable and have a good NPA, and if the butt plate is a little off the line of bore, that's ok. The only thing that matters at the end of the match is whether or not you had fun, and whether or not you achieved your goals.
Jimro
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
Roger,
Yes in theory, raising up the buttplate will reduce muzzle lift simply through decreasing the leverage the recoil can apply, but as you suspect in practise it's not always possible without contorting the upper body. The main factors here are the shape of the stock, and the shooter's build. In terms of stock shape, fore-end depth is key. Take a stock with a very deep fore-end like an Anschutz 1807, and you'll see that to have the centre of the buttplate level with the boreline, the butt will be very very high in relation to the supporting hand. So high that it would be a struggle to keep the forearm over 30°, unless the target is exceptionally high. Very slim fore-ends, like your Gemini, can make a high butt and legal forearm possible, but even then the shooter's build must be taken into consideration. I'm 6'1" and reasonably gangly, and run my buttplate up high, but still not quite level with the bore; I have tried, and for me it's just not comfortable, as my right elbow is forced inwards (or the muzzle is much too high). It certainly can be done with success; Valerian Sauveplane and Henri Junghaenel are two names that spring to mind. Sauveplane is tall and long armed and shoots from a very high position, but with a fairly short butt, and Junghaenel has a very low (just legal) left arm - both have the right shoulder high, and the elbow fairly close to the body. But others manage with the butt lower; just look at photos of Matt Emmons' prone position, he has a relatively high position and the top of the butt is only inch or two above his cheekpiece (and was lower still in the past), yet he shot two 600s in ISSF matches last year.
Put simply, there are other ways to obtain a consistent and minimal recoil impulse. A well balanced and tight position is always the place to start.
Yes in theory, raising up the buttplate will reduce muzzle lift simply through decreasing the leverage the recoil can apply, but as you suspect in practise it's not always possible without contorting the upper body. The main factors here are the shape of the stock, and the shooter's build. In terms of stock shape, fore-end depth is key. Take a stock with a very deep fore-end like an Anschutz 1807, and you'll see that to have the centre of the buttplate level with the boreline, the butt will be very very high in relation to the supporting hand. So high that it would be a struggle to keep the forearm over 30°, unless the target is exceptionally high. Very slim fore-ends, like your Gemini, can make a high butt and legal forearm possible, but even then the shooter's build must be taken into consideration. I'm 6'1" and reasonably gangly, and run my buttplate up high, but still not quite level with the bore; I have tried, and for me it's just not comfortable, as my right elbow is forced inwards (or the muzzle is much too high). It certainly can be done with success; Valerian Sauveplane and Henri Junghaenel are two names that spring to mind. Sauveplane is tall and long armed and shoots from a very high position, but with a fairly short butt, and Junghaenel has a very low (just legal) left arm - both have the right shoulder high, and the elbow fairly close to the body. But others manage with the butt lower; just look at photos of Matt Emmons' prone position, he has a relatively high position and the top of the butt is only inch or two above his cheekpiece (and was lower still in the past), yet he shot two 600s in ISSF matches last year.
Put simply, there are other ways to obtain a consistent and minimal recoil impulse. A well balanced and tight position is always the place to start.
Last edited by Tim S on Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
Tim is correct, if only it was as simple as one variable. Changing the height of a buttplate that locks into the shoulder can also impact the right elbow angle, body height, body angle to the target, and head lateral angle. The body height can then aggravate eye fatigue so you may have to adjust the sight and cheekpiece height. The body height in turn effects the extension of the sling elbow and the hand stop. Oh the insanity... The "rule" to make the buttplate level with the cheekpiece doesn't work for everyone. And when you have it right at your range you go to another with a different slope and its uncomfortable. If you study the book Ways of the Rifle you will see no two top shooters have the same position.
Mark
Mark
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
Many thanks to the knowledgable shooters that have kindly replied to my questions. I now have a much better understanding of this important aspect of prone shooting and can experiment accordingly.
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
The physics of your theory make a lot of sense. However, I believe that recoil should take a back seat to position. If you have a tight consistent position that you can get in every time and for every shot, the recoil will take care of itself. Recoil is also a factor after each shot in evaluating the shot along with let off, sight picture, wind, ect. and therefore not of itself a bad thing.
I believe it would be easy to lose sight of the goal of a great position fitted for your rifle and body in the quest for limiting recoil by placement of the butt plate. It is hyper-critical for the stock to be in the same place with the same forces on it for each shot.
I believe it would be easy to lose sight of the goal of a great position fitted for your rifle and body in the quest for limiting recoil by placement of the butt plate. It is hyper-critical for the stock to be in the same place with the same forces on it for each shot.
Re: Recoil and butt plate height
For me the more important factor above butt plate height is the repeatability of the overall position. These so called perfect heights and lengths of where rifle parts should sit on and into our bodies are starting points only. What would be the point of having what looks to an outside observer the most perfect shooting position on the line if YOU can not make it work for you. Or that when the shooting is done that you are in pain and glad its over.
The perfect shooting position is one you can repeat under pressure. Lets you read the recoil and call shot placement consistently even if the recoil is big and high. And does not break down during the micro adjustment phase ( those little movements you make after resuming the position after loading the rifle) before completing the breathing phase. If your shooting position lets you do these things then you are well on your way.
Cheers GT
The perfect shooting position is one you can repeat under pressure. Lets you read the recoil and call shot placement consistently even if the recoil is big and high. And does not break down during the micro adjustment phase ( those little movements you make after resuming the position after loading the rifle) before completing the breathing phase. If your shooting position lets you do these things then you are well on your way.
Cheers GT