I'm wondering what type of barrel steel was used in older Anschutz rifles?
I recently shot an Anschutz rifle manufactured in '64. After about 450,000 rounds
the original barrel was replaced. The owner went to the trouble of looking for an older barrel as the
newer barrels (by then) were not made of the same type of steel (less durable apparently).
The second barrel was sourced 2nd hand (manufactured in '69) and fitted many years ago.
This rifle is f*&&**g accurate like something new and state of the art and the barrel has NEVER been cleaned.
The owner said he would clean it when the groups started to open up and that's a conservative 100,000+ shots still to go.
Amazing to shoot such an old rifle that projects those .22's like a laser!
Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
I think it has less to do with material and more to do with how the barrel is manufactured. It's possible older barrels were stress relieved better, thus improving consistency between shots. I would imagine a less stressed barrel would vibrate with more regularity between shots and different types of ammunition.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Obviously the mfging process is crucial,but the quality of the steel is absolutely a very critical element. I've read that Anschutz credits the outstanding barrels produced in the 70's a result of an outstanding lot of chromemoly steel from England
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
If you don't mind me asking, how does barrel steel affect performance? Chrome moly is pretty tough stuff, and I can see how it would hold up longer, but does grain structure and composition really have an affect?
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Perhaps techniques for manufacturing steel (like fluid pressed steel) that are not used any more
for gun barrels have resulted in some special properties to be absent in newer firearms.
for gun barrels have resulted in some special properties to be absent in newer firearms.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
barrel makers say it doesAndre wrote:If you don't mind me asking, how does barrel steel affect performance? Chrome moly is pretty tough stuff, and I can see how it would hold up longer, but does grain structure and composition really have an affect?
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Interesting. Several notable shooters swear by Anschutz barrels from around 1972.
Mark
Mark
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Andre,Andre wrote:If you don't mind me asking, how does barrel steel affect performance? Chrome moly is pretty tough stuff, and I can see how it would hold up longer, but does grain structure and composition really have an affect?
I suspect because Anschutz button rifle their barrels. The uniformity of the bore and groove dimensions depends on the resistance of the barrel steel to the button. Homogenous steel will react evenly, but impurities will give uneven results.
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redschietti
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Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Discussing this with them in germany revealed they know what they want but are limited by volume. They get as close as they can buying whats commercially available. To get exactly what they want they ssid they would have to buy a trainload.
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Hap Rocketto
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- Location: Rhode Island
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
I was standing in the assembly area at Camp Perry when my Pennsylvania shooting friend Terry Lightner hurried past me in a crouch, a soft rifle case cradled in his arms and held close to his chest. A vision of Ygor scuttling off to Dr. Frankenstein’s laboratory with a full brain bottle under his cloak came immediately to mind.
Spotting me out of the corner of his eye he stopped, backed up and, with a conspiratorial wink, asked me if I wanted to see something special. Opening the case he rolled over the Anschutz rifle held within, chuckled, and pointed to the serial number which ended in ‘X.’ There I stood, looking down at the junction of Urban Legend, German manufacturing excellence, and military history.
An urban legend is an apocryphal, secondhand story, sworn to be true and just plausible enough to be believable. Remember the Black Widow spider in the beehive hairdo? Or Little Mikey from the Life cereal commercial exploding after ingesting pop rocks and Coca Cola? Usually they circulate in small circles but after Al Gore invented the internet, perhaps another urban legend, they began to grow geometrically and now spread about the world at the speed of light. This series of rifles is the subject of an urban legend which has yet to be verified or denied by Snopes.
The rifle I was looking at, an example of German manufacturing excellence, was a 1600 series Anschutz. This model was a transition model between the 1400 and 1800 series. The 1600 or "X" series, so called because each serial number carries an X suffix, is a very sought after commodity in Europe as it has been used by some top shooters to win some big matches. In true urban legend style the legendary, perhaps mythical, accuracy of these rifles is laid at the feet of an exceptional batch of steel used to make the barrels rather than the rifleman who shoot them.
As far as military history goes the steel used in these barrels, it is said, is to have been salvaged from the hulls of the Hochseeflotte, the Imperial German Navy’s High Seas Fleet of World War I. Veterans of the Battle of Jutland these ships were held at the Royal Navy's base at Scapa Flow in Orkney, Scotland pending their disposition, as part of the terms of the Armistice. The proud German fleet, eleven battleships, five battle cruisers, eight cruisers and forty-eight destroyers, dejectedly steamed into Scapa Flow under the guns of sixty allied warships on November 21, 1918. Dropping anchor they faced an uncertain future that promised to be as cold and as dark as the approaching arctic winter.
The crews suffered through nearly seven months of boredom, poor food, cold, lack of mail, poor morale, and rumors before Rear Admiral Ludwig von Reuter gave the secret prearranged signal to scuttle the ships on June 21, 1919. At ten o’clock in the morning flag hoists soared to the top of the signal yards of the Friedrich der Grosse and were broken out as signalmen windmilled semaphore flags and the bridge was illuminated by the flashing of signal lamps. Within seconds seacocks were opened throughout he interned fleet and cold oily water gushed into the hulls. Within two hours the first of the ships began to list and turn turtle. By five in the evening nearly all the German warships lay under water.
The hulks lay on the bottom until 1923 when entrepreneur Ernest Cox purchased salvage rights to the sunken fleet. Local fisherman had raised concerns about the hulks being a hazard to navigation and the Admiralty acted accordingly. Almost all of the ships were removed by the start of World War II.
The ships not salvaged by Cox constitute the world’s largest reserve of non-radioactive steel because the metal was manufactured before the the nuclear age and, as such, used no alloying material contaminated by fallout. The metal is important in the construction of radioactive measuring equipment, deep space probes, and other sensitive mechanisms. Perhaps even Anschutz rifle barrels, or so we would be led to believe by the mystics of our sport.
My interest in this particular urban legend was more than just passing for it turns out that, while Terry had just acquired an 1600 series rifle, I have been using one for several years. My rifle’s last four serial number digits are 400X, adding to its enigmatic aura, and, maybe because it is a 1600 series, I have also shot a 1600 with it.
Taking everything into consideration I guess I have every reason to believe the urban legend concerning the special nature and source of the magical steel used in these exceptional rifles. Deep down inside I am convinced that my rifle barrel is made from Krupp steel salvaged from one of the tubes of a 12 inch gun taken from a turret of the König class battleship Kronprinz Wilhelm, which lies upside down in 35 meters of water. The ship is a popular dive site but riddled with holes where salvors have cut away valuable metal, some say to make tack driving barrels for Anschutz.
I would wonder about the British providing a German rifle company with scrap metal taken from German warships but as a Brooklyn, New York native I remember the Sixth Avenue Elevated, a subway line which was closed on December 4, 1938 and razed during 1939. It turns out that much of the scrap metal from the El was sold to Japan. During World War II it was said that this scrap was used by the Japanese to manufacture bombs, tanks, planes, or ships-you can take your pick-used against the United States almost exactly three years later on December 7, 1941.
It may, or may not, be true but certainly one urban legend concerning scrap metal deserves another.
Spotting me out of the corner of his eye he stopped, backed up and, with a conspiratorial wink, asked me if I wanted to see something special. Opening the case he rolled over the Anschutz rifle held within, chuckled, and pointed to the serial number which ended in ‘X.’ There I stood, looking down at the junction of Urban Legend, German manufacturing excellence, and military history.
An urban legend is an apocryphal, secondhand story, sworn to be true and just plausible enough to be believable. Remember the Black Widow spider in the beehive hairdo? Or Little Mikey from the Life cereal commercial exploding after ingesting pop rocks and Coca Cola? Usually they circulate in small circles but after Al Gore invented the internet, perhaps another urban legend, they began to grow geometrically and now spread about the world at the speed of light. This series of rifles is the subject of an urban legend which has yet to be verified or denied by Snopes.
The rifle I was looking at, an example of German manufacturing excellence, was a 1600 series Anschutz. This model was a transition model between the 1400 and 1800 series. The 1600 or "X" series, so called because each serial number carries an X suffix, is a very sought after commodity in Europe as it has been used by some top shooters to win some big matches. In true urban legend style the legendary, perhaps mythical, accuracy of these rifles is laid at the feet of an exceptional batch of steel used to make the barrels rather than the rifleman who shoot them.
As far as military history goes the steel used in these barrels, it is said, is to have been salvaged from the hulls of the Hochseeflotte, the Imperial German Navy’s High Seas Fleet of World War I. Veterans of the Battle of Jutland these ships were held at the Royal Navy's base at Scapa Flow in Orkney, Scotland pending their disposition, as part of the terms of the Armistice. The proud German fleet, eleven battleships, five battle cruisers, eight cruisers and forty-eight destroyers, dejectedly steamed into Scapa Flow under the guns of sixty allied warships on November 21, 1918. Dropping anchor they faced an uncertain future that promised to be as cold and as dark as the approaching arctic winter.
The crews suffered through nearly seven months of boredom, poor food, cold, lack of mail, poor morale, and rumors before Rear Admiral Ludwig von Reuter gave the secret prearranged signal to scuttle the ships on June 21, 1919. At ten o’clock in the morning flag hoists soared to the top of the signal yards of the Friedrich der Grosse and were broken out as signalmen windmilled semaphore flags and the bridge was illuminated by the flashing of signal lamps. Within seconds seacocks were opened throughout he interned fleet and cold oily water gushed into the hulls. Within two hours the first of the ships began to list and turn turtle. By five in the evening nearly all the German warships lay under water.
The hulks lay on the bottom until 1923 when entrepreneur Ernest Cox purchased salvage rights to the sunken fleet. Local fisherman had raised concerns about the hulks being a hazard to navigation and the Admiralty acted accordingly. Almost all of the ships were removed by the start of World War II.
The ships not salvaged by Cox constitute the world’s largest reserve of non-radioactive steel because the metal was manufactured before the the nuclear age and, as such, used no alloying material contaminated by fallout. The metal is important in the construction of radioactive measuring equipment, deep space probes, and other sensitive mechanisms. Perhaps even Anschutz rifle barrels, or so we would be led to believe by the mystics of our sport.
My interest in this particular urban legend was more than just passing for it turns out that, while Terry had just acquired an 1600 series rifle, I have been using one for several years. My rifle’s last four serial number digits are 400X, adding to its enigmatic aura, and, maybe because it is a 1600 series, I have also shot a 1600 with it.
Taking everything into consideration I guess I have every reason to believe the urban legend concerning the special nature and source of the magical steel used in these exceptional rifles. Deep down inside I am convinced that my rifle barrel is made from Krupp steel salvaged from one of the tubes of a 12 inch gun taken from a turret of the König class battleship Kronprinz Wilhelm, which lies upside down in 35 meters of water. The ship is a popular dive site but riddled with holes where salvors have cut away valuable metal, some say to make tack driving barrels for Anschutz.
I would wonder about the British providing a German rifle company with scrap metal taken from German warships but as a Brooklyn, New York native I remember the Sixth Avenue Elevated, a subway line which was closed on December 4, 1938 and razed during 1939. It turns out that much of the scrap metal from the El was sold to Japan. During World War II it was said that this scrap was used by the Japanese to manufacture bombs, tanks, planes, or ships-you can take your pick-used against the United States almost exactly three years later on December 7, 1941.
It may, or may not, be true but certainly one urban legend concerning scrap metal deserves another.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
I recall several years ago Geoffrey Kolbe rejecting a shipment of steel blanks because of some undesirable quality. This was at a time when Border barrels were some of the hottest barrels on the market. It would be interesting to hear his opinion on the "quality" of steel in regards to barrel performance.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
I'd heard the first part of Hap's story - that the X-marked Anschutz barrels used a magic batch of special steel, but not that it was supposedly salvage from the German Fleet! Incidentally, the steel from the fleet is indeed prized, but for different reasons:
Certainly the steel matters. I believe Dan Lilja has the foundry where he sources his steel put them through a heat-treatment to relieve stress and ensure the steel has a consistent composition throughout (harder and softer spots will make it difficult to machine a truly straight bore), and he also puts them through a heat treatment at his factory post-rifling.
The truth I gather is rather more mundane - the X literally stands for eXperimental, at a time when Anschutz were experimenting with new techniques and designs.Minor salvage is still carried out to recover small pieces of steel. This low-background steel is used in the manufacture of radiation-sensitive devices, such as Geiger counters, as it is not contaminated with radioisotopes, having been produced prior to any chance of nuclear contamination.
Certainly the steel matters. I believe Dan Lilja has the foundry where he sources his steel put them through a heat-treatment to relieve stress and ensure the steel has a consistent composition throughout (harder and softer spots will make it difficult to machine a truly straight bore), and he also puts them through a heat treatment at his factory post-rifling.
Last edited by Hemmers on Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Not to be too much of a pedant, but Lilja barrels are button rifled. Post rifling heat treatment is done to relieve stress created in the barrel by the button as it deforms metal. From what I understand post-rifling stress relief isn't needed for cut rifling, because the cutting doesn't stress the barrel.Hemmers wrote:he also puts them through a heat treatment at his factory post-cutting.
Edit: Geoff Kolbe, formerly Mr Border Barrels, mentioned on another forum that Anschutz don't stress relieve their barrels after rifling. I'm not a metallurgist, but this might make them more sensitive to imperfections in the blanks.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Yeah, I meant more general "post rifling" but of course ended up inadvertently being more specific than I meant.Tim S wrote:Not to be too much of a pedant, but Lilja barrels are button rifled. Post rifling heat treatment is done to relieve stress created in the barrel by the button as it deforms metal. From what I understand post-rifling stress relief isn't needed for cut rifling, because the cutting doesn't stress the barrel.Hemmers wrote:he also puts them through a heat treatment at his factory post-cutting.
Edit: Geoff Kolbe, formerly Mr Border Barrels, mentioned on another forum that Anschutz don't stress relieve their barrels after rifling. I'm not a metallurgist, but this might make them more sensitive to imperfections in the blanks.
As you say, cutting is a subtractive process, whereas buttoning physically reshapes the steel, which introduces stress.
I gather stress relief is especially important if you plan to contour or flute the barrel, as any internal stresses could cause the barrel to warp as you remove the exterior material. Anschutz don't tend to do a lot of fluting or esoteric stuff with the outside of their barrels, so maybe "get away with it".
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
The issue of stress in metals is complex.
I work with steel alloys daily and heat treatment of parts, but I am not familiar with the exact steels and materials for rifle barrels, the initial bar stock is generally made using a rolling process on a near molten extrusion of steel alloy which progressively reduces the diameter and cools at the same time - the nature of the process causes there to be stress in the bar.
Most bar stock is then tempered and peeled, the tempering acts to reduce some of the stresses and the peeling removes the surface layers which tend to have a lot of stress and also impurities in them. This is the cheapest method of producing a commercial bar with the least stresses.
Sometimes the final bar product is stress relieved further (this might be as simple as holding it at 200C for 2 hours) - in theory the less stress the material is under the less shift you can expect to get in the following machining processes.
Every time you cut and shape the bar, (turn, drill, broach, mill, file, braze etc) you are effectively changing the way in which the internal stresses might distort or relieve stress.
So the fact that metal is being removed doesnt necessarily add much extra stress, but it is changing the balance of whatever stresses are already present.
Turning it down into a taper may or may not allow it to twist or distort, but milling flats and pockets will often result in some degree of distortion.
If there is forging or hammering in the processes this can both add and relieve stresses, it can even cause the internal stresses to be relieved and the outer case to become stressed
which aids strength and hardness - every material is different.
Any final heat treatment will also do the same thing.
Often "heat treatment" is a multistage process that involves slowly bringing up the temperatures and then holding them for a while and then the final quench where the temperature is suddenly dropped from red hot to "cool" in the shortest time possible that results in the crystalline structure of the steel being frozen to provide the hardness, core strength and properties for the final application.
The final task of the barrel maker is to straighten the barrel, so even though all the other processes are designed to relieve stress, the barrel does not end up perfectly straight without some final correction.
I know this doesnt really help explain the specific issues about Anschutz barrels, but does give a bit of an insight into the complexity of stress
Suffice to say that using certain materials and doing the process in certain ways will give a much better result than if done in other ways and the art of making a barrel evolves.
I doubt Anschutz are likely to publicly provide their exact process - its probably a valuable trade secret.
But in some ways it really is a bit of a magical combination of materials and processes that probably included some trial and error as much as scientific/engineering method over a long time. Did they luck on a particular batch of alloy that just works better for no known reason - no idea, but its possible.
Just as on occasion we get a batch of alloy that doesnt behave normally during the machining processes, break and wears tools, yet shows no obvious metallurgical differences and produces a perfect finished part !
I work with steel alloys daily and heat treatment of parts, but I am not familiar with the exact steels and materials for rifle barrels, the initial bar stock is generally made using a rolling process on a near molten extrusion of steel alloy which progressively reduces the diameter and cools at the same time - the nature of the process causes there to be stress in the bar.
Most bar stock is then tempered and peeled, the tempering acts to reduce some of the stresses and the peeling removes the surface layers which tend to have a lot of stress and also impurities in them. This is the cheapest method of producing a commercial bar with the least stresses.
Sometimes the final bar product is stress relieved further (this might be as simple as holding it at 200C for 2 hours) - in theory the less stress the material is under the less shift you can expect to get in the following machining processes.
Every time you cut and shape the bar, (turn, drill, broach, mill, file, braze etc) you are effectively changing the way in which the internal stresses might distort or relieve stress.
So the fact that metal is being removed doesnt necessarily add much extra stress, but it is changing the balance of whatever stresses are already present.
Turning it down into a taper may or may not allow it to twist or distort, but milling flats and pockets will often result in some degree of distortion.
If there is forging or hammering in the processes this can both add and relieve stresses, it can even cause the internal stresses to be relieved and the outer case to become stressed
which aids strength and hardness - every material is different.
Any final heat treatment will also do the same thing.
Often "heat treatment" is a multistage process that involves slowly bringing up the temperatures and then holding them for a while and then the final quench where the temperature is suddenly dropped from red hot to "cool" in the shortest time possible that results in the crystalline structure of the steel being frozen to provide the hardness, core strength and properties for the final application.
The final task of the barrel maker is to straighten the barrel, so even though all the other processes are designed to relieve stress, the barrel does not end up perfectly straight without some final correction.
I know this doesnt really help explain the specific issues about Anschutz barrels, but does give a bit of an insight into the complexity of stress
Suffice to say that using certain materials and doing the process in certain ways will give a much better result than if done in other ways and the art of making a barrel evolves.
I doubt Anschutz are likely to publicly provide their exact process - its probably a valuable trade secret.
But in some ways it really is a bit of a magical combination of materials and processes that probably included some trial and error as much as scientific/engineering method over a long time. Did they luck on a particular batch of alloy that just works better for no known reason - no idea, but its possible.
Just as on occasion we get a batch of alloy that doesnt behave normally during the machining processes, break and wears tools, yet shows no obvious metallurgical differences and produces a perfect finished part !
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Came across this thread only today and just had to check my 2 Anschutz rifles I have. The one I shoot regularly (at least twice a week) is a 1981 vintage 'Super Match mod 1813' as clearly displayed on the barrel and butt hook that can only be swiveled sideways.
My second rifle is a 'Match 54', 1979 vintage, serial number ending in 'X'. Woodwork identical to the Super Match but with a more elaborate butt hook that can also swivel upwards. I'm guessing this is one of the intermediate experimental 1600 models?
My second rifle is a 'Match 54', 1979 vintage, serial number ending in 'X'. Woodwork identical to the Super Match but with a more elaborate butt hook that can also swivel upwards. I'm guessing this is one of the intermediate experimental 1600 models?
- Anschutz 1979 'X' Butt
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Rob,
Yes the '79 vintage Match 54 is a 1600. These were introduced some time in 1976-'77, and replaced by the 1800 rifles in 1980. Compared to an older 1400 Match 54 the 1600 has a faster locktime, and a more sophisticated trigger. Anschutz lightened the firing pin and spring to make it faster, but also tried to stop it acting like a piston, and compressing air by milling a slot in the bolt. The slotted bolt was dropped for 1800 rifles, but these have an even lighter firing pin and spring, backed by a stronger secondary spring around the indicator pin.
That 1600 barrel might not be in the original stock if it's identical the 1813. 1613 stocks typically have a rounded triggerguard and slot-headed bedding bolts without the stacked washers found on 1800 rifles. The buttplate is a later 1813/1913 model introduced by '84.
Yes the '79 vintage Match 54 is a 1600. These were introduced some time in 1976-'77, and replaced by the 1800 rifles in 1980. Compared to an older 1400 Match 54 the 1600 has a faster locktime, and a more sophisticated trigger. Anschutz lightened the firing pin and spring to make it faster, but also tried to stop it acting like a piston, and compressing air by milling a slot in the bolt. The slotted bolt was dropped for 1800 rifles, but these have an even lighter firing pin and spring, backed by a stronger secondary spring around the indicator pin.
That 1600 barrel might not be in the original stock if it's identical the 1813. 1613 stocks typically have a rounded triggerguard and slot-headed bedding bolts without the stacked washers found on 1800 rifles. The buttplate is a later 1813/1913 model introduced by '84.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Thanks Tim,
Looks like I have a 1813 stock with 1600 barreled action then. Bedding bolts are not slot headed, in fact same as the 1813.
You are correct in that the bolt does have a slot as compared to my 1813 which does not.
My averages have dropped off over the last year, from high 97's (25yrd) to just below 97 so I'm going to try and get someone to check the 1813 barrel given I shoot 4500+ rounds a year and I have no idea how many went through it before I bought it 3 years ago. Probably me just shooting rubbish but one thing less to worry about if checked. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread these barrels should last 100k+ rounds and it probably has!
Looks like I have a 1813 stock with 1600 barreled action then. Bedding bolts are not slot headed, in fact same as the 1813.
You are correct in that the bolt does have a slot as compared to my 1813 which does not.
My averages have dropped off over the last year, from high 97's (25yrd) to just below 97 so I'm going to try and get someone to check the 1813 barrel given I shoot 4500+ rounds a year and I have no idea how many went through it before I bought it 3 years ago. Probably me just shooting rubbish but one thing less to worry about if checked. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread these barrels should last 100k+ rounds and it probably has!
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
A drop of a point could just be the operator, but there's no harm in having the rifle checked especially if it hasn't been serviced regularly (God bless the factory team at Bisley) as the bolt springs in particular can wear. A very thorough clean of the barrel and action (say with VFG blue paste in the bore) and a service, followed by batch testing may prove all is well.
Re: Pre 70's Anschutz barrel steel
Tim,Tim S wrote:A drop of a point could just be the operator, but there's no harm in having the rifle checked especially if it hasn't been serviced regularly (God bless the factory team at Bisley) as the bolt springs in particular can wear. A very thorough clean of the barrel and action (say with VFG blue paste in the bore) and a service, followed by batch testing may prove all is well.
I'm intrigued by what you write about the bolt springs. Do you mean that they can lose their compressive power and that this would then have an adverse affect on ignition, or am I reading too much into your words? Or do they wear in some other way? I have two 1800 barrels, so I am very interested in this potential problem, if there is one.
Roger