TargetTalk

I had not noticed the fat holes until recently........having shot a lot of CCI through it over the last several years.

Shooting BE indoors @ 50', I was getting some very fat, oblong hits, maybe 3 or 4 per tgt of ten shots. Commented on by various shooters when they scored me over the last several months.

I sent it off for a crowning even though it wouldn't snag the first wisp of cotton from a Q tip. Back it comes and no change.......grrrrr.

Same results tonight on the first group of targets. I changed to S&K Std - nothing fancy or even the Pistol Match flavor and NO funny holes. I'm going to mic the CCI Std vel fodder and do some cogitating and testing. I'm wondering if CCI may/may not have a bit of a mfrg QC problem?

Results will be posted.

Quick question: Which older Lapua .22 rf ammo was a bit larger diameter? Older Midas L or M? Seems I read that in the last year or 3......

My Smith keyholes when the barrel is leaded. Usually, soaking it with lead removal solution followed by vigorous scrubbing with the bronze brush improves things. But it usually takes a while.

On a different note, tumbling of bullets does not reduce the accuracy at 50 feet too much but helps you to reach that higher scoring ring. Count it as a blessing.

Better scoring through fat oscillations?? Yah, I've mentioned that to the guys but the question remains: What to use at the long line?

TAJ45 wrote:I had not noticed the fat holes until recently........having shot a lot of CCI through it over the last several years.

Shooting BE indoors @ 50', I was getting some very fat, oblong hits, maybe 3 or 4 per tgt of ten shots. Commented on by various shooters when they scored me over the last several months.

I sent it off for a crowning even though it wouldn't snag the first wisp of cotton from a Q tip. Back it comes and no change.......grrrrr.

Same results tonight on the first group of targets. I changed to S&K Std - nothing fancy or even the Pistol Match flavor and NO funny holes. I'm going to mic the CCI Std vel fodder and do some cogitating and testing. I'm wondering if CCI may/may not have a bit of a mfrg QC problem?

Results will be posted.
.

Check for leading, especially at the point of the barrel where that lead round chambers, about an inch in.

It isn't the CCI. I've shot cases of it without a single key hole.

If that doesn't work, I suggest sending the gun to an accurizing gunsmith and letting him diagnose the issue, rather than paying for one fix after another that "might" be the issue.

Been down that road with the AW 93 (not key holing, another issue).

The SK standard is not as big as the CCI and slightly shorter, so it may not be engaging the barrel at the same point that the CCI does. This may be why it it is working (for now).

I would have a good gunsmith scope the barrel,
It may be leaded,
May have a damaged barrel crown,
Or could be something else.

"Something else" ?

I've shot a 41 for a looonnng time and never have seen this or heard of it.

A 22 barrel shooting decent ammo should not have the first hint of lead.. If it does, something is wrong..

Jerry Keefer wrote:A 22 barrel shooting decent ammo should not have the first hint of lead.. If it does, something is wrong..

Jerry's posting reminded me of a true incident that I experienced decades ago. It was way back in 1975, right before I started

shooting NRA Bullseye Pistol. Was out plinking in a gravel pit with a Remington Nylon 77 Rifle. Had 2 bricks of Winchester Wildcat

.22LR cartridges with me. Started shooting at empty soda cans around 30 yards away. Hit a couple of them at first, then

unexpectedly started to miss the rest of them by a mile. Had only fired one magazine, which held a total 10 rounds. Rifle function and

report were normal. Examined rifle after making certain it was safe. Factory iron sights were not loose. Looked down the bore. It's

diameter appeared to be about 1/2(?) of what it should have been! Lead was smeared all the way from the chamber to the muzzle.

Had to quit after a 40 mile, one way trip. F.W. Woolworth (department store) gave me a cash refund. They sent my two bricks of

ammo back to Winchester for evaluation. Had a good gunsmith in town clean out the bore. Upon thorough examination, he determined

that the rifle had not been damaged in any way. They sent me an apologetic letter stating that the metallurgical mixture of the lead

bullets was not to specification; the bullets were way too soft. Winchester even reimbursed me for the gunsmith's charges.


TAJ45, Did you ever consider having another shooter try the same ammo in order to see if the keyholing still occurs with their pistol?

Otherwise, you may want to contact CCI Tech Support. They may want a sample of your ammo for testing and evaluation.

Another thought...bullet tipping is pretty common with .32/.38 wadcutter loads. Limp-wristing the gun will almost guarantee an oval hole.

My now lined 41 barrel was no doubt keyholing with CCI at 50ft. Holes in paper were full sideways. The thing that is curious was that CCI was real bad keyholing. While other ammos keyholed less and Eley was only tipped some but still not accurate. At 50 yards the CCI did not even always hit paper. Eley would group, tipped some, maybe 12" at 50yd.

A few years ago, I received a new in the box 41 .. The rifling had a 2inch section appox mid barrel, where the rifling process failed, and looked much like stripped threads on a bolt. The only place to find match grade barrels in the USA, is aftermarket.. Factory barrels certainly aren't in the same ball park..High Standard had the closest sample of a true match barrel than any other maker.. The chambers, leades, rifling, was very good.. Have you ever dissected a Ruger barrel..:(

Jerry Keefer wrote:A few years ago, I received a new in the box 41 .. The rifling had a 2inch section appox mid barrel, where the rifling process failed, and looked much like stripped threads on a bolt. The only place to find match grade barrels in the USA, is aftermarket.. Factory barrels certainly aren't in the same ball park..High Standard had the closest sample of a true match barrel than any other maker.. The chambers, leades, rifling, was very good.. Have you ever dissected a Ruger barrel..:(

The quality control is quite poor at a number of manufacturers. I suspect one of the major reason those European guns are popular is the same reason, a lot of us started driving Japanese cars.

I forgot how many 41 barrels I had, but no less than 4. I purchased two of them (one iron-sighted with the gun and one later, to be used with a scope), the rest were replacements by S&W. Only one was not prone to leading. Unfortunately, S&W took it away: when my slide cracked at the contact with the slide stop, I sent the gun for a lifetime warranty repair. They replaced the slide all right, but the new slide was shitty, and it visibly had a bigger barrel-to-slide gap on one side compared with the left side. Probably for that reason, they could not fit this slide to my old barrel so they sent me a new one (otherwise why would they took to trouble of putting my old sight on this new barrel?). That one I did not have a chance to try for leading. It had a dent forward of the chamber. So I soon sent it back and demanded another barrel and another slide. They complied. But the new barrel (as well as the second of the old ones I still have) both suffer with keyhole'ing if not scrubbed regularly.

Isabel1130 wrote:

Jerry Keefer wrote:A few years ago, I received a new in the box 41 .. The rifling had a 2inch section appox mid barrel, where the rifling process failed, and looked much like stripped threads on a bolt. The only place to find match grade barrels in the USA, is aftermarket.. Factory barrels certainly aren't in the same ball park..High Standard had the closest sample of a true match barrel than any other maker.. The chambers, leades, rifling, was very good.. Have you ever dissected a Ruger barrel..:(

The quality control is quite poor at a number of manufacturers. I suspect one of the major reason those European guns are popular is the same reason, a lot of us started driving Japanese cars.

Hello Isabel,

RE: Your comment about poor Q.C. at a number of manufacturers. How true; how sad! This prompts a question. How soon until we all

start "driving" Japanese Bullseye Pistols? :-(

mr alexander wrote:

Isabel1130 wrote:

Jerry Keefer wrote:A few years ago, I received a new in the box 41 .. The rifling had a 2inch section appox mid barrel, where the rifling process failed, and looked much like stripped threads on a bolt. The only place to find match grade barrels in the USA, is aftermarket.. Factory barrels certainly aren't in the same ball park..High Standard had the closest sample of a true match barrel than any other maker.. The chambers, leades, rifling, was very good.. Have you ever dissected a Ruger barrel..:(

The quality control is quite poor at a number of manufacturers. I suspect one of the major reason those European guns are popular is the same reason, a lot of us started driving Japanese cars.

Hello Isabel,

RE: Your comment about poor Q.C. at a number of manufacturers. How true; how sad! This prompts a question. How soon until we all

start "driving" Japanese Bullseye Pistols? :-(

Unless our sport goes strictly Air Soft, with the gun laws in Japan, I don't think Japanese pistols are in the near future.

But those nice Euro ones, sure are....

In the late 1960's Smith & Wesson moved manufacturing of the M41 from Springfield, Massachusetts to Holton, Maine. Quality started to suffer, I don't believe production of the M41 ever went CNC. It looks like it is still manufactured on 60 year old tooling, I have seen brand new barrels with partial rifleing and chambers not concentric and rough. Slides machined asymmetrical, left to right. Since the M41 is a low production offering, I must assume the investment to convert to CAD /CAM was never made. True target pistols and rifles are too small a market in the US for domestic manufactures to bother with. The M52 went away and I know the M41 has been on the brink several times, I think neglect and a diminishing market will kill it in the not to distant future.

Gort


PS: To Isabel, look at domestic cars again, the quality gap was true 20 years ago, now, domestic cars are every bit the equal of the imports.

Gort,

I also visit a forum called "RFC", which is short for Rim Fire Central. On their "Smith & Wesson" section, the discussion a while back

focused on the rising costs of USED Model 41 pistols. The reason for the price increases? New ones are temporarily unavailable.

According to one poster, production of this model is currently being moved from Massachusetts to Arizona. I had sent him a PM, asking

where he learned of this. The reply? "Clark's", meaning Clark Custom Guns. If this is true, perhaps S&W is now doing what other gun

makers have already been doing. They're relocating to a more business and firearm friendly state. Question is, will new production

equipment be installed in the Arizona facility?

@Gort



Yes, the unions keep telling us that, but most of those domestic cars are made out of parts, and entire systems manufactured and assembled overseas, or in Canada.

Where the final assembly takes place doesn't really matter. It is usually just enough to comply with the government contracting regulations (the Buy American Act)

A Byzantine regulation with which, I am unfortunately,intimately familiar.