TargetTalk

What is the relationship between the stand and sights ?

They can be passionate, suave lovers but most of the time they are emotionally distant and this causes much ambiguity and frustration.

Good one v76!!! Made me laugh!

sha3banov, in relation to your question, try to rephrase it so we can better understand what you are asking.

v76 wrote:They can be passionate, suave lovers but most of the time they are emotionally distant and this causes much ambiguity and frustration.

Hahahahahahah ( like ) ..

Nooo .. That not what i mean .... :)
i want to know how much the stand effect of the sights movement ???

v76 wrote:They can be passionate, suave lovers but most of the time they are emotionally distant and this causes much ambiguity and frustration.

My brand of humor and beat me to the punch. :-)

sha3banov,

Are you asking if stance, as in open "90 degree with shooting arm more sideways" vs. closed "45 degree shooting arm more in front of you" , will affect stability of the hold, which translates to increased or decreased "sight movement" ?

If this is what you are asking, then YES it will. At least for me anyway.

Would you like me to explain?

-Bill

Stance seems to be somewhat trendy. Lately it has been more like 90 degrees, but since there is no NPA in pistol shooting whatever feels comfortable will work.

zanardi50 wrote:

v76 wrote:They can be passionate, suave lovers but most of the time they are emotionally distant and this causes much ambiguity and frustration.

My brand of humor and beat me to the punch. :-)

sha3banov,

Are you asking if stance, as in open "90 degree with shooting arm more sideways" vs. closed "45 degree shooting arm more in front of you" , will affect stability of the hold, which translates to increased or decreased "sight movement" ?

If this is what you are asking, then YES it will. At least for me anyway.

Would you like me to explain?

-Bill

Yes please... How that ????

Would you like me to explain?

-Bill

I'd like it if you explained differences between 90 and 45 degree stance please.

Here are some things to consider:

1. The distance between your feet
- a. There has been some study that suggests the closer the feet, the more stable
- b. The distance between the feet can also affect the vertical position of the gun
- - 1. Closer together can lower the point of aim
- - 2. Further apart can raise the point of aim

2. There is normally more sway perpendicular to the heels of the feet
- a. A 180 degree stance, with heels in line with the target can increase a group horizontally
- b. A 90 degree stance, with heels perpendicular to the target can decrease the horizontal component at the expense of the vertical
Note: The above is actually due to the correction made to the perceived sway rather than by the sway, itself. If the natural movement is allowed, with proper shot progression, the group is only minimally affected.

3. The position of the body over the feet will have an affect on the endurance needed for a match
- a. If you try for an exact centering over the feet, you will get more sway than if you are slightly off center, but you will use more muscles to hold a slightly off center stance
- b. The centering will also be affected by the positioning of the feet
- - 1. Toes inward can provide some stability if a slight forward lean is incorporated, but will create more stress
- - 2. Toes outward can be more relaxed, but can also allow more sway if the body tends toward the heels

Only study on the part of the shooter can really determine the best stance to use for the optimal results. The best stance is one that can be maintained throughout the match. Remember to document the details of the study in your journal.

Sorry for jumping back into the fray a tad late....spending too much time pencil pushing on a (supposedly) Holiday weekend. :p

Ed very much sums it up perfectly. Hats off to you Ed, I wish I have your knowledge and can write as good as you. :-)

Toddinjax,

I apologize for the confusion. I meant 90 degree as in perpendicular to the target (closed stance) vs. 180 degree in-line to the target (open stance), as Ed pointed out.

Sha3banov,

Like Rover said, there is no true NPA with one hand pistol shooting as long as you build up the muscles that hold the arm in place while on aim. Depending on your unique physical make-up, initially you will find certain stance more comfortable than other, but that doesn't mean you cannot change your NPA. You can build up muscle memory for any type of stance as long as you do it enough. The goal here is to find what brings results (the bottom line) that's tailored to YOU....

In the early 90's when I was in better leaner shape, the closer to 180 degree open stance worked much better for me. Recoil management with center fire pistols was better with this stance - the gun will track straight up and down and had a lot less muzzle lift. Transition between the targets in RF was smoother and less jerky. But I always struggled with side-to-side body sway. Somehow that didn't affect my score much, because as my upper torso swayed like mad my head and arm were one unit and seemed like it had its own separate movements. The sights always wobbled within the acceptable area of aim regardless of my swaying side to side. The coach of USC collegiate team thought it was "quite interesting" that I was still able to shoot decently well with all of that side-swaying.

Nowadays, with 30 additional lb. of unwanted ballast of soft organic mass protruding out of front end of my mid-section, I find it more comfy to use the closed (more perpendicular) stance. About 1.5 years ago when I came back to one handed shooting I had more up/down movement with the closed perpendicular stance as opposed to the open stance, just like Ed described in his last post 2.b., but I'm using the double/triple breathing lowering technique and I fire my shot while the gun is on the move down toward the aiming area, so it appears that the vertical movement is incorporated into my technique and works in my favor. Side body sway is practically non-existent BUT the trade off for me is recoil management when shooting sustained fire with larger bore guns.

Since I recently picked up NRA bullseye shooting around summer of this year, and shooting outdoors, I discovered perpendicular stance much more cross wind-resistant than the open stance (upper body = sail). I believe the perpendicular/closed stance is the way to go for the NRA discipline. Again, as Ed explained, turning toes inward also aid in preventing the wind from blowing you off balance. But if all you shoot is ISSF with the closed off firing points from the elements and wind baffle screens in place, then 180 degree open stance would work just fine.


Here's one more suggestion before I sign off.

I'd like to add, though, that you pay very special, particular attention to your head positioning if you decide to use the open stance in-line to the target method.

Try this:

When on aim, TILT your head sideways to the right (right handed shooter) toward your backside just a little bit, just enough to stop the side to side body sway. Then lock your head in place. (Odd as this may seem, but if I keep my head straight and erect, I will sway uncontrollably when using the open in-line stance). While keeping your head slightly tilted in this manner, bring your gun up to align the sights. Adjust grip if necessary to have sights lined up while keeping your head position still locked (can't stress this enough!). The tendency is that the head will revert back to upright position ever so slightly the longer you hold the gun up as the neck muscle tires. When this happens you will lose your balance and your side sway wobble will increase, which may cause you to hold the gun up even longer and force a shot that won't end well. Worse from this is that since the head had moved out of alignment with the aligned sights, so is your eye. You will unknowingly and maybe subconsciously tighten up your grip with the tip of your fingers or even turn your wrist outward to re-align your sights again, and if you fire your shot in this state you will most likely throw your shot into lower left (assuming you're righty) because that's where your gun will naturally point to when the shot fires. The result is worse with air pistols and mid-range center fire loads that spends prolonged lock time inside the barrel as the bullet exits.

Ok that's about it. Hope my and other's suggestions are beneficial to you!

Thanks for reading! :-)

Regards,
Bill

zanardi50 wrote: I'd like to add, though, that you pay very special, particular attention to your head positioning if you decide to use the open stance in-line to the target method.

Try this:

When on aim, TILT your head sideways to the right (right handed shooter) toward your backside just a little bit, just enough to stop the side to side body sway. Then lock your head in place. (Odd as this may seem, but if I keep my head straight and erect, I will sway uncontrollably when using the open in-line stance). While keeping your head slightly tilted in this manner, bring your gun up to align the sights. Adjust grip if necessary to have sights lined up while keeping your head position still locked (can't stress this enough!). The tendency is that the head will revert back to upright position ever so slightly the longer you hold the gun up as the neck muscle tires. When this happens you will lose your balance and your side sway wobble will increase, which may cause you to hold the gun up even longer and force a shot that won't end well. Worse from this is that since the head had moved out of alignment with the aligned sights, so is your eye. You will unknowingly and maybe subconsciously tighten up your grip with the tip of your fingers or even turn your wrist outward to re-align your sights again, and if you fire your shot in this state you will most likely throw your shot into lower left (assuming you're righty) because that's where your gun will naturally point to when the shot fires. The result is worse with air pistols and mid-range center fire loads that spends prolonged lock time inside the barrel as the bullet exits.

Ok that's about it. Hope my and other's suggestions are beneficial to you!

Thanks for reading! :-)

Regards,
Bill

thanks for all that information :) it will help me sure ... take a look to my shooting position ... soonly i found most of my targets like that .... so what can i do to fix that ???

You have bought a gun with expensive adjustable sights.

Use Them :-)

David Levene wrote:You have bought a gun with expensive adjustable sights.

Use Them :-)

i want to know what wrong is happened .. the sights was v.good before !!!!

David Levene wrote:You have bought a gun with expensive adjustable sights.

Use Them :-)

So that's why there are screws on my rear sight! (Don Nygord 04/02)
http://www.australiancynic.com/NYGORD.h ... that's_why

sha3banov wrote:

David Levene wrote:You have bought a gun with expensive adjustable sights.

Use Them :-)

I want to know what wrong is happened .. the sights was very good before (the shot breaks) !!!!

Very good shooting! :-) Your target tells me that you've come this far just on hard work/merit alone. Your hold is very solid as far as I'm concerned, staying within 9.5 or even 9.7 ring - excluding the shots that "got away".

I'd give it 2 clicks to the right with the rear sight.

However, your group pattern is oval/diagonal. Shots that were bad dispersed toward the 1-2 o'clock (upper right) and 7-8 o'clock (lower left).

This is rather typical of right handed shooters. Reverse is true for southpaws.

Rather than over-explain things, as I tend to do (:p), I'll try to make it simple as best as I can (not gonna happen lol).

The trouble you're having is NOT "movement" in your stance, but "movement" in your wrist, unbeknownst to you.

It doesn't take much to miss seeing your sight misaligned. Even wimpy recoil of the air pistol can mask it. You are probably "flicking" your wrist up left or low right.

The flick can be caused by too much pressure at the gripping hand's fingertips, which pulls alignment to low left from your neutral state. You then use this death grip to line up your sight. As the trigger is released your wrist will slightly relax and the gun goes back up and right and there goes your shot at 1-2 o'clock!! :-)

The "flick" of your wrist can be so ever "slight" and quick that you can't see it when it happens as the shot breaks and sights lifted, because your "visual" follow through probably stopped at the moment the gun fires. I'm willing to bet you're anxious and just can't wait to find out where that shot went! lol

A shooter can probably get away with this and coming out nailing 10's or solid 9's shooting guns with faster moving projectile inside shorter barrel, like 45 ACP in 1911 Govt. But not with .177 pellets going around 500fps in a long, long barrel of an Olympic AP, or even mid-range .32 Pardini's or .38 1911's for that matter. One really have to isolate the grip, keeping it constant and unchanging yet neutral in grip tension, and smooth, independent trigger movement straight to the rear, and F-O-L-L-O-W-T-H-R-O-U-G-H!!

Try the following exercise:

while firing a live round, imagine there's a 2nd round in the gun. Instead of putting too much emphasis on the first shot (loaded, ready to go), just proceed to work the 1st shot through as if it's part of the 2 shot string, then "fire" the 2nd shot, aiming eye staying on the sights still, until after you pull your trigger again to "fire" the imaginary 2nd shot. Remember to keep constant trigger straight back pressure once committed, DO NOT STOP and GO, while maintaining grip pressure constant (can't stress this enough! Do this right and it will pay dividends!). If you ever tighten your grip as you move your trigger you will pull gun down and right and you'll try to align your sight with that tightened grip. What happens as the shot is release and your grip relaxes your shot will go right back up to high right (Yes I'm repeating this again, for the sake of how important this is!)

The above will help train your subconscious to NOT "stop" at the first shot and anticipate (which explains the upper right shots on your target).

As for low left shots, your grip pressure on those shots that ended up there may be slightly weaker than it takes to trip the trigger. As you move the trigger your grip will slightly tighten until shot breaks, causing your shot low left. Using the trigger to steady the sights will have the same effect. Again, you must isolate the hold on the gun and your trigger movement!

Here's another exercise that works for me as well:

Work on tactile feel of what's a good, neutral, firm grip feels like.

Do this by closing your eyes, assume a firm neutral grip on the gun, and raise it, aiming at the target where you feel it is at, DO NOT OPEN OUR EYES.

Since your eyes are now closed, you senses are now better to perceive and detect what firm grip is, but not too tight. Notice every sensitivity of the grip, with every part of your hand that comes in contact with it. Then hold it there for 20 seconds. Firm yet neutral.

Do that for 10 minutes before going to bed every night. Preferably with the same gun you're going to be shooting.

"Mr. Hand, meet Ms. Grip! Hug 'er tight, feel every inch of her body, but don't smother her!"

Try my suggestions, and good luck! Love to hear your range report 2 weeks later! :-)

zanardi50 wrote: Rather than over-explain things, as I tend to do (:p), I'll try to make it simple as best as I can (not gonna happen lol).

Thanks for taking the time to post this, I found it interesting and informative.

zanardi50 wrote: I fire my shot while the gun is on the move down....
Bill

This is for me interesting as I find that so I get shots that are horizontally dead centre....however it is very difficult to find the right moment to release to get also a vertically centred shot.
So for this reason I have been working hard to stop this.

Any further comment on shooting "on the move"?

"On the move", eh?

Well, most shooters forget that "ambushing" the bull as it wanders by just doesn't work. The reason being, that there is a time lag due to nerve and brain processing time and squeezing the trigger.
What you see ain't what you get.

What you need to do is develop the steadiest hold you can and squeeze the trigger, ignoring the movement of the sights. Simple, right?

Zanardi
Thank a lot for your last post. I found it extremely interesting.

Although "shooting" on the move sounds like trying to pick off the bull, I don't believe that is what was meant, and starting the trigger while on the move to the center is not a bad idea. In fact, it's better to have the shot go off when you reach center, than to reach center, start the shot and have it fire when you move off center. This is not trying to hit center as you swing through. This is starting the trigger and then settling into your hover within your aiming area.

Readers might be interested in my "2006 New Year's Training Exercise."