TargetTalk

To avoid hijacking another thread...

In a 10m air match, how should this rule be interpreted:

6.2.2.6 During firing, the gun may be put down (not held) only after the cartridge(s) and/or magazine are removed and the action is open. Air guns must be made safe by opening the cocking lever or loading port.

My understanding is that I can put my airgun down with a pellet in it as long as the cocking lever is up and the loading port is open. I have been advised during a match by an RO that this is not allowed, and I must keep hold of the gun if there is a pellet in it. For clarity, I am talking about NOT moving from the firing point, simply putting the gun down to wipe hands, adjust ear protection or similar.

I am not dumb enough to argue with an RO during a match, but would like to know if I have been getting it wrong and been lucky only to be picked up on this once.

McT

I would agree with your interpretation of the rule.

Thanks David.

That is also my view.

I think that since safety flags were introduced, there has been some confusion on how and when they should be used.
This is my view on things:

6.2.2.2 Safety flags constructed of fluorescent orange or a similar bright
material must be inserted in all rifles, pistols and semi-automatic
shotguns at all times except when safety flag removal is
authorized by these rules.

6.2.2.4 When placing a gun down to leave the firing point or when firing is
complete, all guns must be unloaded with actions (bolt or locking
mechanism) open and safety flags inserted.

Otherwise:

6.2.2.6 During firing, the gun may be put down (not held) only after the
cartridge(s) and/or magazine are removed and the action is open.
Air guns must be made safe by opening the cocking lever or
loading port.

Specially for 25 meter pistol using paper targets, but applicable to all other events, since personnel have to go to the targets to score them:

6.2.2.7 The handling of guns is not permitted and safety flags must be
inserted when any personnel are forward of the firing line.

Hope this helps

rmca wrote: 6.2.2.4 When placing a gun down to leave the firing point or when firing is
complete, all guns must be unloaded with actions (bolt or locking
mechanism) open and safety flags inserted.

I think that the normal application of this rule is that you should put in the safety flag whenever you step away from the gun, even if you are still on the firing point.

David Levene wrote:

rmca wrote: 6.2.2.4 When placing a gun down to leave the firing point or when firing is
complete, all guns must be unloaded with actions (bolt or locking
mechanism) open and safety flags inserted.

I think that the normal application of this rule is that you should put in the safety flag whenever you step away from the gun, even if you are still on the firing point.

The rule specifically states that "When placing a gun down to leave the firing point...". Otherwise why would you need rule 6.2.2.6?

I don't object the idea that you should insert the safety flag every time you put the gun down, but that's not what the rules say in my view.

rmca wrote:

David Levene wrote:

rmca wrote: 6.2.2.4 When placing a gun down to leave the firing point or when firing is
complete, all guns must be unloaded with actions (bolt or locking
mechanism) open and safety flags inserted.

I think that the normal application of this rule is that you should put in the safety flag whenever you step away from the gun, even if you are still on the firing point.

The rule specifically states that "When placing a gun down to leave the firing point...". Otherwise why would you need rule 6.2.2.6?

I don't object the idea that you should insert the safety flag every time you put the gun down, but that's not what the rules say in my view.

I'm not saying every time that you put the gun down, the rule is normally applied at World Cups and other similar matches as whenever you step away from the gun.

David Levene wrote:I'm not saying every time that you put the gun down, the rule is normally applied at World Cups and other similar matches as whenever you step away from the gun.

That is good practice.
But what happens if a shooter doesn't leave the firing point but lays the gun on the table with a pellet in the barrel and the action opened. Does he get a warning despite the fact that he is obeying the rules?

rmca wrote:

David Levene wrote:I'm not saying every time that you put the gun down, the rule is normally applied at World Cups and other similar matches as whenever you step away from the gun.

That is good practice.
But what happens if a shooter doesn't leave the firing point but lays the gun on the table with a pellet in the barrel and the action opened. Does he get a warning despite the fact that he is obeying the rules?

At a World Cup then yes, he would normally get a warning if he stepped away from the gun. It would normally however have been mentioned during the technical meeting.

We try to run most of the larger matches here in the UK the same way as major international matches are run.

David Levene wrote:We try to run most of the larger matches here in the UK the same way as major international matches are run.

As we do here in Portugal. But in this case I feel that we are being stricter than the rules imply.

rmca wrote:

David Levene wrote:We try to run most of the larger matches here in the UK the same way as major international matches are run.

As we do here in Portugal. But in this case I feel that we are being stricter than the rules imply.

When I first heard how the rule was being applied at major internationals I was surprised, but that's how it is.

There are 3 options:-

1) Run your matches the way they are run internationally.
2) Try to convince international Juries that they should change the way they are running matches.
3) Run your matches other than the way they are run internationally, but that won't do your competitors any favours as they will not be used to the international way of doing things.

Whenever I am CRO at a match I include the requirement in my pre-match instructions.

Putting a airpistol down with a pellet in it is the same as putting down a loaded gun, regardless if the loading gate is open or closed.
You do not put a auto down with a round chambered and the slide open, dont do it with air.
If there is a pellet in the gun, hold it in your hand......its loaded.

The next mistake that will happen is you forget that it is loaded and load another pellet in and fire two pellets at once......

David M wrote:Putting a airpistol down with a pellet in it is the same as putting down a loaded gun, regardless if the loading gate is open or closed.
You do not put a auto down with a round chambered and the slide open, dont do it with air.
If there is a pellet in the gun, hold it in your hand......its loaded.

I dissagree.

There's nothing unsafe about briefly putting an air pistol down (with pellet in but breech open) to say adjust glasses or ear muffs etc. It's on the bench pointing down range and even if the impossible happened and it went off, it's still pointing in a safe direction.

The wording in 6.2.2.6 about air guns is there in recognition of the difficulty in 'unloading' (i.e. removing the pellet) a single-shot air gun; short of firing the pellet.

Don't you just insert your (full length) safety flag (whipper-snipper cord) from the muzzle and just pop the pellet out?

j-team wrote:

David M wrote:Putting a airpistol down with a pellet in it is the same as putting down a loaded gun, regardless if the loading gate is open or closed.
You do not put a auto down with a round chambered and the slide open, dont do it with air.
If there is a pellet in the gun, hold it in your hand......its loaded.

I dissagree.

There's nothing unsafe about briefly putting an air pistol down (with pellet in but breech open) to say adjust glasses or ear muffs etc. It's on the bench pointing down range and even if the impossible happened and it went off, it's still pointing in a safe direction.

J-team,
In your scenario, let's say times up to change targets. Pistol (loaded) stays on the table and competitors go down range. Then? You could think of a couple scenarios that wouldn't be good.

Couldn't happen? I disagree. There can be many distractions during a match. Even if you are not distracted by others, a shooter can be self absorbed in thought. And forgetful.

The act of putting down an AP with a pellet loaded isn't wrong. It's the subsequent action after (or lack there of) that can cause a tragety.

What would be so wrong to shoot that pellet, then, put down the empty AP?

Chuck

chuckjordan wrote:...let's say times up to change targets...

Whoa! Now you are stepping outside the ISSF rules - if you are going to do this, it is reasonable to bring in additional 'local' rules to keep things safe, such as the pistol must be completely unloaded and the safety flag inserted.

But then, more than once I have been at ISSF Championships when there has been a problem with a target and the seven bays either side (total 15 bays) are cleared by the RO and then people go forward to fix the target while the other shooters continue.

chuckjordan wrote: In your scenario, let's say times up to change targets. Pistol (loaded) stays on the table and competitors go down range. Then?

As Spencer has pointed out, that wouldn't happen in an ISSF match. There are however times when personnel must go forward to the targets, and they are clearly covered by ISSF rule 6.2.2.7 "The handling of guns is not permitted and safety flags must be inserted when any personnel are forward of the firing line."

BobGee wrote:Don't you just insert your (full length) safety flag (whipper-snipper cord) from the muzzle and just pop the pellet out?

That doesn't work on all guns; the Matchguns MGH1 for example.

chuckjordan wrote: J-team,
In your scenario, let's say times up to change targets. Pistol (loaded) stays on the table and competitors go down range. Then? You could think of a couple scenarios that wouldn't be good.

Well, maybe I've been lucky as I would have to go back 25+ years to think of a time when I shot Air Pistol on a range which needed people to go forward to change targets (think it was outdoors too!).