Vendors at the Olympic Complex

HannahGary · Post by **HannahGary** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:43 am

My cylinder is out of date and we were wondering if there was a place we could get a new cylinder when we get there. My rifle is an Walther LG300 Junior.

Andre · Post by **Andre** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Deleted

rmarsh · Post by **rmarsh** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:52 pm

Walther & 10.9 should both be there. They may or more likely may NOT have any cylinders. Due to the new 10 year rule (I'll refrain from saying what I think of it) replacement cylinders are hard to come by. Both places had cylinders for sale at winter airgun, but sold out very quickly when equipment check got underway.

BigAl · Post by **BigAl** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:04 am

Has anyone actually been stopped from shooting at a match with a cylinder that is over ten years old? I ask as the rule says that the shooter must simply be given a warning about the age. It's a pretty silly rule really and a warning seems like a reasonable comprimise.

Alan

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:40 am

Cannot resist asking: which Olympic complex?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:41 am

Spencer wrote:Cannot resist asking: which Olympic complex?

There is only one, right ?

Munich of course ;)

Rob.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:21 am

RobStubbs wrote:
Spencer wrote:Cannot resist asking: which Olympic complex?
There is only one, right ?

Munich of course ;)

Rob.

Bummer!
And I thought the one I will be shooting at tomorrow was an Olympic venue...

rmarsh · Post by **rmarsh** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:03 pm

I assume with Junior Olympics coming up that the OP was talking about USA Shooting at the Olympic Training Center.

Yes, they are checking air cylinder dates and rejecting those over 10 years old. No argument here that it is a stupid rule...... tell that to the ISSF.

Marc Orvin · Post by **Marc Orvin** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:53 pm

BigAl wrote:Has anyone actually been stopped from shooting at a match with a cylinder that is over ten years old? I ask as the rule says that the shooter must simply be given a warning about the age. It's a pretty silly rule really and a warning seems like a reasonable comprimise.

Alan

You will not shoot this match (the Junior Olympic National Championships to which the original poster referred) with an out of date cylinder. So, the answer is yes, you will be stopped from shooting the match. Same at the WC last week in Ft Benning.

Don't know what rule you refer to that says a warning is all that is needed. See ISSF rule 6.2.4.2. I'll admit that ISSF rule 6.7.5.1 is a bit ambiguous in that it states "advisory recommendations may be given." But, I can assure you that NO outdated cylinders are currently allowed at World Cups and none here at Colorado Springs for the JO nationals either.

We are currently getting the stickers ready for the cylinders that pass inspection. We will be ready tomorrow morning when equipment check starts.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:11 pm

Well, I guess we now know SOMEONE we can blame for this clusterf*ck.

rmarsh · Post by **rmarsh** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:59 pm

Marc Orvin wrote:

We are currently getting the stickers ready for the cylinders that pass inspection. We will be ready tomorrow morning when equipment check starts.

Stickers? I sure thought I had read "somewhere", maybe in one of the air rifle manuals... That you were not supposed to put stickers on, or paint an air cylinder. Has anyone else heard or read that?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:48 am

Given that equipment control is now voluntary assuming the 2104 ISSF rules are followed, I'm not quite sure the point of stickers. I also would not put stickers on cylinders because they will interfere with fixing them to the gun, never mind the issue around glue etc.

Stickers are (were) normally only put on the gun itself as it went through EC. As I mentioned with the rule change, the stickers are now redundant as the only checks are the post match random equipment and clothing (and doping) checks.

Rob.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:23 am

RobStubbs wrote:...as the only checks are the post match random equipment and clothing (and doping) checks.

Rob.

6.8.5?

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:07 am

Spencer wrote:
RobStubbs wrote:...as the only checks are the post match random equipment and clothing (and doping) checks.

Rob.
6.8.5?

At a recent 25mP match we ran, the only thing random was the order in which we read out ALL of the firing point numbers for post-competition checks. Mind you, we did have an EC officer sitting around doing nothing and plenty of time before the next (RFP) match.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:27 am

David Levene wrote:
Spencer wrote:
RobStubbs wrote:...as the only checks are the post match random equipment and clothing (and doping) checks.

Rob.
6.8.5?
At a recent 25mP match we ran, the only thing random was the order in which we read out ALL of the firing point numbers for post-competition checks. Mind you, we did have an EC officer sitting around doing nothing and plenty of time before the next (RFP) match.

Duplicitous English devils

redschietti · Post by **redschietti** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:17 am

MYbe David can correct me, but my daughters gun and cloths came back from Benning WC with the usual stickers and tags

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:45 am

redschietti wrote:MYbe David can correct me, but my daughters gun and cloths came back from Benning WC with the usual stickers and tags

Rifle shooting jackets and trousers must have a seal and that seal's number must be registered with the ISSF. Only 1 jacket seal and 1 trouser seal can be registered at any one time for each shooter ID.

If the competitor volunteers to have any other items checked pre-competition then there's no problem in the EC section applying a sticker. Do not expect that sticker to have any bearing should you be selected for post-competition testing.

"You say it passed before the match, well that's tough because it's failed now."

BigAl · Post by **BigAl** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:05 pm

David Levene wrote:"You say it passed before the match, well that's tough because it's failed now."

Considering that EC checks are SUPPOSED to be carried out in a systematic and consistent way, it really surprises me the number of instances where this seems to happen. If you submit kit for testing before the event to ensure that you have no issues if you are spot checked, and you make no changes to the kit, how can it suddenly fail when tested afterwards. Especially when tested on the same equipment? This seems to apply especially to jacket thickness and flexibility. Lets face it 99.99999999% of shooters are not trying to cheat and just want kit that will do the job and pass.

What really worries me is getting my daughter a new suit, that will likely cost me almost two months total income, and there seems to be absolutely no way to reliably pick a supplier who can produce one that is guaranteed to pass EC when checked. I think I would much rather see a system of homologation for equipment as in much motor sport. So that the manufacturers have kit type approved, and as long as that kit is as manufactured/approved, without changes then it conforms to the rules. I do not believe that this should seriously add to the cost of the equipment, and at least the shooter, or the parent in the case of a junior, knows that what they are getting is actually going to conform to the rules.

I wonder what would happen if shooters here in the UK at least started returning new jackets and trousers that have failed EC on things such as thickness/flexibility as being "Unfit for purpose"? If you purchase a jacket supposedly made to ISSF regulations, it is not unreasonable to expect it to conform to the rules and pass EC checks.

Alan

IRLConor · Post by **IRLConor** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:49 am

BigAl wrote:What really worries me is getting my daughter a new suit, that will likely cost me almost two months total income, and there seems to be absolutely no way to reliably pick a supplier who can produce one that is guaranteed to pass EC when checked.

I know it's not perfect for the "reliably" and "guaranteed" in your wish above, but I got a Hitex jacket from Philippa Taylor last year and it passed EC with no hiccups at Granada three weeks after I got it. At least talk to Philippa about your concerns and she may be able to give you some sort of qualified guarantee about the probability of a particular suit passing. She is pretty well-versed in the rules, her work is good and she's honest. That's about as close to a guarantee as you'll get, I'm afraid.

The other thing that may set your mind at ease somewhat is that (in my experience at least) the EC people want you to pass. For example, in Munich last year my 5 year-old jacket was failing the stiffness test on one panel (by ~0.4!) but the tester bashed and rolled it until it passed. I'm sure that if you're blatantly trying to use out-of-spec gear then they'll happily fail you but if you're marginal and using well-known kit from a well-known manufacturer then they're not going to be mean about it.

BigAl wrote:I think I would much rather see a system of homologation for equipment as in much motor sport. So that the manufacturers have kit type approved, and as long as that kit is as manufactured/approved, without changes then it conforms to the rules.

I've seen some evidence of testers using common sense along those lines. In Munich last year they looked at my glove, saw it was a model they knew and just waved me on. The testers in Granada checked my glove but to call the test cursory would overstate what they did. :)

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:18 am

Spencer wrote:
RobStubbs wrote:...as the only checks are the post match random equipment and clothing (and doping) checks.

Rob.
6.8.5?

That wasn't what I was refering to as jury members have always had the ability to check anything, pretty much at any time.

I was referring to the checks conducted as part of the equipment control process i.e 6.7.7. and the post match checks, 6.7.9 thus;

"Post-competition checks for 10m and 50m rifle and
pistol events must check a minimum of five (5) athletes, including
random finalists, random and target testing selections."

Rob.