TargetTalk

Hi to everyone and thanks in advance for your input. I have shot pistol and rifle my whole life, but never in competition. I want to compete and the 25m rapid fire event looks fun, although I can see myself also trying 50m some too. I have looked at and shot a range of .22s over time, but not sure what would be a good entry level pistol. I have seen a S&W 41 locally, but I am flinching at the price. Is there any good pistols to look at that I don't have to spend $1k on, including a slab side grip and a trigger job? I know this price point may be too low, but I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I am just starting out/trying out. On the other hand, I am a very competitive person by nature, so I don't want equipment to hold me back. I have been considering a Buckmark or a Ruger Mk ii or iii. Are these pistols up to the task and are there better choices? Used is definitely an option. I just don't even know where to start and am sort of frozen with an overwhelming set of choices and prices. Once again, I may upgrade later to a Hammerli or Morini if I enjoy it and feel the need, but where do I start without having issues with accuracy from the equipment?

I forgot to add the Hammerli Trailside to the list of potential candidates.

The first question about RF is if you have a place to shoot it. That's a pretty scarce event, there are perhaps a dozen ranges in the USA with the facilities for it. I'd shoot it a whole lot more myself if I had the chance...but I really don't.

Now, as to pistols - I would suggest getting a mid-grade pistol and trying everything, then see how you like it. The Ruger is OK if you drop in a set of Volquartsen trigger parts or have a trigger job done. But I think you're better off looking for a used High Standard or S&W. The older (pre-TX) High Standards had a good reputation for accuracy, reliability, and trigger quality.

With Free Pistol, things get interesting. There are enough used Toz-35s floating around in the $700 range to make it tempting to buy one - which puts you into top-flight hardware right off the bat.

For all pistols, trigger and sights matter more than mechanical accuracy. The man-machine interface dominates the accuracy equation in a way that it does not in rifle shooting.

I have found that RF competition is scarce, but traveling to compete seems to be the norm in this discipline. I have a local range that I can practice at by modifying some of the shooting. There is an active club about 3 hours from me to compete at. As far as free pistol, I hate getting a gun for something I am not sure about. Somehow RF appeals to me more and, if I am correct, RF pistols can shoot in free, but not the other way around (although at a disadvantage)

You are interested in two very different disciplines, Rapid Fire (25 meters) and free pistol (50 meters).
The 1k you mentioned will only be enough to buy ONE used pistol, and don't think you can use the same pistol for both. RF has a 1000 gram minimum trigger, free pistol (ence the name) has no minimum, and are usually in the 20 to 100 grams range, with some shooters going even lower than the 20g. Not to mention the rest...

It's a waste of bullets to shoot free pistol with anything else than a free pistol!

For rapid fire don't waste time or money on anything else. Get a used Pardini SP. Period! It will hold it's value if you decide to resell, and it's by a landslide, the most used pistol for that discipline. Also the best in my opinion.
The S&W41, buckmark, ruger, etc. will not be any near as competitive as a Pardini, so don't even think of them as an option, if you're serious about competing.

For free pistol, you have two choices, the Morini CM84 and the TOZ35(M). The TOZ will be the cheaper of the two, and it's no longer made, but you can find them used. The 1k will not be enough to buy a new Morini, so once again, used.

Hope this helps

The Pardini is a great choice, but seem to be going for $1500 or so - way over budget. I still have to contend with justifying "another gun".

Don't look at it as "another gun", look at it as "the gun". It will put all others to shame.

In my honest opinion, if 1500 is over budget, wait and save the other 500. The pistol is worth every cent.

Ask around the range/club that you intend to shoot if someone is looking to sell, some of the best deals are made that way, and the gun never makes it to the classifieds.

Just so you know, I have no association with Pardini, but I do own one and it's probably the best buy I've made. You will not be sorry if you decide to get it.

Hope this helps

Dear Atxguy...............


Where are you located...

quite frankly, you are looking at this, you are looking at that, it might be best to see what is available in your area and give it a shot.

Based on your location, I might be able to direct you to someone who is experienced, accomplished, and mentored a couple shooters into the sport already.

appreciate it.

Cranky

I am in the Austin area.

You can find older Pardini SPs for around $1000.
Don't mess with a Model 41, I've found them to be unreliable. Really, save up for a Pardini.

As someone who has shot quite a few local RF matches and won some of them and done so with Smith 41, I can say a few things, take it or leave it.

First, Smith is not a competitive RF gun. You can still have a lot of fun with it but neither its trigger (too crisp, you want a more rolling trigger for RF), nor sights (better suited for precision fire), nor design (too high barrel axis), nor grip angle (too straight) are great for RF. Pardini rules the discipline.

Second, RF is a very technique-sensitive sport. By that I mean that progression in learning it should be very gradual, otherwise you risk learning all bad habits and reinforce them with more practice as the time goes by. To avoid such bad habits, and eventual inevitable frustration, you should not even attempt to shoot an 8 sec series on 5 turning targets until a few months into your training. Ideally, the progression follows this:
1. You learn to shoot a 10 in a slow fire mode -- no time limit -- on a single target.
2. You learn the lift without time limit and without firing a live round.
3. You learn to shoot a shot from the ready position on a single target without time limit.
4. Now the same with the time limit gradually reducing the time to 3 seconds like in a dueling part of Centerfire/Sport pistol.
5. Learn firing two shots on two targets without time limit.
6. The same with more targets eventually shooting on all 5.
7. You gradually reduce the time to 8 seconds.

You should not progress to the next step before you get most of your shots into the 10-ring consistently. And here we don't even talk about 6 and 4 second training.

All in all, proper RF training is grueling and if done right could be rather boring (dry firing is at least as important in RF as in precision shooting).

I went from a benelli to a izh35 to a Pardini. Along the way I picked up a smith, ruger and a trailside. I have sold everything except the trailside and bought a second Pardini.

Pardini is a great gun that will allow you to shoot rapid, conventional and bullseye. You can shoot it in free pistol but you have to load 1 round at a time. I would agree you are at a disadvantage against a free pistol but it is better to shoot what you have than stay home.

I suggest buy used ruger, smith, trailside, benelli that feels good I your hand and you can try out to verify reliability/ammo preference. Then be on a look out for a used Pardini. I found 2 lightly used recent generation models for 1100 plus shipping and shipping fees and one of them had a match dot to boot. You can sell the used gun for what you paid for it and upgrade to the Pardini.

I really liked the izh 35. But sold it due to fear of no replacement parts. A very good pistol.

Good luck. Hope you can find rapid, conventional and free pistol matches near you. All. My local matched have withered and died. Bullseye is the only one left and thankfully that is going okay.

"1. You learn to shoot a 10 in a slow fire mode -- no time limit -- on a single target.
2. You learn the lift without time limit and without firing a live round.
3. You learn to shoot a shot from the ready position on a single target without time limit.
4. Now the same with the time limit gradually reducing the time to 3 seconds like in a dueling part of Centerfire/Sport pistol.
5. Learn firing two shots on two targets without time limit.
6. The same with more targets eventually shooting on all 5.
7. You gradually reduce the time to 8 seconds"

Could you please explain further?

I was looking at the izh 35 yesterday. Ugly gun but great price point and great reviews. I believe it will far out shoot me for a while.

atxguy wrote: Could you please explain further?

What part is confusing?
Short of writing a book on the subject, the basic idea is similar to learning how to fast-type -- you first get to know the keys before working on your speed (analogy is from Antal & Skanaker book, which has some more details on RF training).

IZh-35 is not a bad gun for RF, but its durability leaves to be desired, as the metal used is reportedly on the softer side and parts are not easy to find.

In RF you don't have time to think or align the sights, you just act when the targets turn (or the lights go on/off).

So, in order for you to be able to do a series of five shots into five different targets in 8, 6 and 4 seconds, it has to come automatically.

There's no point in trying to shoot a timed series if you can't hit the ten ring without the time pressure. That's why this is a very good advice:

"1. You learn to shoot a 10 in a slow fire mode -- no time limit -- on a single target.
2. You learn the lift without time limit and without firing a live round.
3. You learn to shoot a shot from the ready position on a single target without time limit.
4. Now the same with the time limit gradually reducing the time to 3 seconds like in a dueling part of Centerfire/Sport pistol.
5. Learn firing two shots on two targets without time limit.
6. The same with more targets eventually shooting on all 5.
7. You gradually reduce the time to 8 seconds"

And I would add, a LOT of dry fire in between!

Hope this helps

It's a waste of bullets to shoot free pistol with anything else than a free pistol!

I disagree. I have used a factory-stock single-action revolver with a 5 1/2" barrel to shoot several FP matches. Single-loading each round through the loading gate every time. I'm no Top Shot, and I couldn't even break 400 points (out of 600), but I had fun, and I learned the event, and therefore it was not a waste of bullets (besides, they were cheap bullets anyway...).

It looks like atxguy is looking at under $1k; he can get a decent pistol that will serve him in 25m and bullseye and that won't hold him back too much in FP. If he gets a $1k FP, however, he can't really do anything else with it, not even plinking (which the Trailside is awesome at, by the way). As was said above:

... you are at a disadvantage against a free pistol but it is better to shoot what you have than stay home.

Now, atxguy, I know that you originally said...

I am a very competitive person by nature, so I don't want equipment to hold me back

...but there's a psychological advantage to that as well, which is that it enables conscious rationalization. For example, when I shoot my revolver in an FP match, I score in the bottom half of all competitors, and my happy internal monologue tells me that "I didn't score as well as others because I was not using the ideal piece of equipment". When I shoot with my Hämmerli free pistol my scores are way higher, but I'm still usually in the bottom half of competitors, and then the only available monologues are things like "I didn't score as well as others because (I suck / I don't practice enough / I'm not wonderful / etc...)". Of course, if you really, really want to get really, really good, you can't do any of that rationalization business - you have to be brutally honest with yourself about your flaws!

I started shooting free pistol with a High Standard Victor because the collegiate team I was on couldn't afford real free pistols for a more than a handful of the best shooters. It was quite a while before I felt the pistol was what was holding me back. I've also watched Don Hamilton WIN a free pistol match with a S&W Model 41 when his electronic trigger Hammerli died.

I help coach the same collegiate team now, and we have enough free pistols to go around. It's no miracle cure. I could outshoot most of them with my standard pistol, even though my eyes & arm are getting old. They are still learning the fundamentals, and will launch at least one 6 (or worse) on almost every target due to lapses in concentration or a shaky shot process.

If you are just starting out and want to stay below a $1K investment, even a used high-end European pistol may be out of your budget. One option would be a Benelli MP-95, which can be upgraded over time to an MP-90 by replacing the grips & trigger assembly.

If you want to shoot free pistol, I'd suggest you also get an air pistol. It's a similar discipline, and you can practice at home on the cheap. Some people are more naturally suited for the precision events than for faster ones like rapid fire. If you think you want to specialize, that might help provide some insight into which you prefer.

jr wrote:

It's a waste of bullets to shoot free pistol with anything else than a free pistol!

I disagree ... and I couldn't even break 400 points (out of 600)

My point exactly. How do you think that someone who's starting would feel after a score like that? Probably stop competing and join the "herd" of plinkers...

... you are at a disadvantage against a free pistol but it is better to shoot what you have than stay home.

I do not agree. You won't get the right feeling nor the same satisfaction. You get sort of experience...

Gwhite wrote: I've also watched Don Hamilton WIN a free pistol match with a S&W Model 41 when his electronic trigger Hammerli died.

1- He used an Hammerli to shoot and only turn to the revolver as a backup to finish the competition. The same won't apply to a beginner.
2- He was probably a very good shooter (I don't know him, I'm going by what you wrote)
3- The other competitors sucked. Or at least were not at his level.

atxguy wrote: I am a very competitive person by nature, so I don't want equipment to hold me back

Then you need to review your budget.

I'm not trying to prove a point nor impose my views, I genuinely want atxguy to get both sides of the coin so he can make up his own mind.

Hope this helps

Don Hamilton was an Olympian, so clearly a non-representative outlier. In my view there is really no point for a beginner to show up to a free pistol match with a semi-auto sport pistol. A beginner needs to taste some success and have some fun rather than to see how other folks with Tozs and Hammerlis score north of 500. If 'atxguy' is interested in the long-range shooting then participating in some conventional pistol matches would give him an opportunity to shoot at 50 yards (at least in the US) on much more reasonable (for a sport pistol) targets. I say go with international standard/NRA conventional pistol, which combine both precision fire and rapid fire elements, and once (and if) you realize that you enjoy precision shooting enough, get a dedicated free pistol (and be prepared for a couple of years of a frustrating learning curve).