TargetTalk

I've been having issues with my left hand slipping in offhand. This is the best hand position I have found but my hand keeps slipping. I've been using this glove for less than a month. The new glove made it a little better because my old one was really worn but it's still slipping a lot. [/img]

What make of glove are you using and how grippy is it ? Also how about the rifle stock, is it very shiny and inherently slippy ? All that said the weight of the rifle should just be going straight down and the left hand should be pretty static and locked in position. I'm wondering if you're not using too much muscle power to hold the gun instead of using your position / skeleton ?

Rob.

Try using some non slip/skater tape:

http://www.tactics.com/jessup/skateboar ... heet/black

bdutton wrote:Try using some non slip/skater tape

Except for the rule:
7.4.2.5 Material that gives increased grip may not be added to the forend, pistol grip or lower part of the stock.

Now there is nothing that says you cannot rasp down and make rougher the stock down there.

Also, I think that the hand position shown may really stretch the tendons in the wrist causing the arm to naturally slip away from you a bit. ... How much have you tried to rotate your hand position 90° counter clockwise? If the position is then too low (which it may be) remember you have that rail on the bottom and can add some sort of palm rest.

jhmartin wrote:

bdutton wrote:Try using some non slip/skater tape

Except for the rule:
7.4.2.5 Material that gives increased grip may not be added to the forend, pistol grip or lower part of the stock.

Now there is nothing that says you cannot rasp down and make rougher the stock down there.

Also, I think that the hand position shown may really stretch the tendons in the wrist causing the arm to naturally slip away from you a bit. ... How much have you tried to rotate your hand position 90° counter clockwise? If the position is then too low (which it may be) remember you have that rail on the bottom and can add some sort of palm rest.

Good catch on the rule. What if you add the grip tape to the glove? Or what about a fore-end riser block/palm rest that has the roughed up surface/tape. The rules state you can't add this to the stock but you can add a riser block and there is no rule (that I can find) against putting the non slip tape on that.

bdutton wrote:

jhmartin wrote:

bdutton wrote:Try using some non slip/skater tape

Except for the rule:
7.4.2.5 Material that gives increased grip may not be added to the forend, pistol grip or lower part of the stock.

Now there is nothing that says you cannot rasp down and make rougher the stock down there.

Also, I think that the hand position shown may really stretch the tendons in the wrist causing the arm to naturally slip away from you a bit. ... How much have you tried to rotate your hand position 90° counter clockwise? If the position is then too low (which it may be) remember you have that rail on the bottom and can add some sort of palm rest.

Good catch on the rule. What if you add the grip tape to the glove? Or what about a fore-end riser block/palm rest that has the roughed up surface/tape. The rules state you can't add this to the stock but you can add a riser block and there is no rule (that I can find) against putting the non slip tape on that.

You are allowed to extend the stock downwards within the confines of the stock dimension rules for AR. However IIRC the extension must conform to the general shape of the stock, and would be considered part of the stock as far as the rules are concerned. At least thats how it used to be before the days of ally stocks in AR. So basically if EC would fail it on the actual stock they would fail it on any extension.

Alan

[quote="alabamaismylonging"]I've been having issues with my left hand slipping in offhand. This is the best hand position I have found but my hand keeps slipping. I've been using this glove for less than a month. The new glove made it a little better because my old one was really worn but it's still slipping a lot. [/img][/quote]

What direction is your hand slipping?

It is kind of hard to tell from your picture, but your shoulders and hips look like they are rotated to the left, away from the target. I had this problem and it made it very difficult to hold the rifle up and it felt like it was slipping.

What helped me was squaring up my shoulders and hips towards the target more. and bringing my hand back closer to the pistol grip so that my left forearm is completely vertical.

Also keep in mind that moving your hand back will raise your NPA so you might need to narrow your stance bit.

Another question you my want to ask yourself. Is it your hand, or the buttplate that is slipping?

Thanks for the suggestions!

Rob, I'm using a Creedmoor glove. I tried shooting without the glove last night and my hand doesn't slip at all but it's a little less stable and not as comfortable. I might be using a little muscle, I'll work on that today.

TH18, My hand is slipping toward the muzzle. I see what you're saying about twisting my hips, I'll work on that today as well. It's definitely my hand that's slipping.

Jhmartin, I shot with my hand rotated 90 counterclockwise for about 2 years and it was a too low. I found this hand position about 6 months and it settles in faster and is just more stable, but I'll try the other one again. What palm rest would be legal on my rifle?

alabamaismylonging wrote:Jhmartin, I shot with my hand rotated 90 counterclockwise for about 2 years and it was a too low. I found this hand position about 6 months and it settles in faster and is just more stable, but I'll try the other one again. What palm rest would be legal on my rifle?

If you have a bit of money to spend, I'd initially recommend the Anschutz 1912 Forend riser block #4856 ... $113 from Champ Choice.

HOWEVER ... I needed quite a few foreend risers for my shooters. Some of them shoot much better using one also in Kneeling, so I make them myself that are custom height for each shooter.

The starting point is a #BR-36A Bench rest block for the Anschutz rail from Champion Shooters Supply ... it's $25. The first thing I do is put this on a table saw and trim both sides off so that it is the width of the stock. I then replace the 10-32 bolts that come with this and tap the "slider" for M5 bolts that are adjustable with your normal Anschutz tool, but that is optional.

My guess, looking at the photo, the height of this block may be all you need to bump the rifle up just a bit.

On 1912, 1913, & 1914 wood stocks my shooters need a bit more lift in kneeling and standing so I make them one for each by working with them, shimming between the block and their hand while they are in position to get a proper NPA on the target. I then cut down a 2x4 and screw it to the bottom of the block.

For my daughter who shoots NCAA rifle, she actually has two for standing, one that is meant for targets at the OTC and Ft. Benning and another for the slightly higher shooting angle of the NCAA 50 ft targets. When sh is home for the holidays, I'll probably build her another separate one for the OTC.

I also made her one that is the same height as that Anschutz #4856 and put a rail on it so she can use it in kneeling ... she had to give her sister's 4856 back to her!

Here is a photo of the first one I built (a bit rough looking) for her ... This is the one set for the target heights at Ft Benning. Also shows her hand position that does not stretch her tendons in her wrist as much as the "palm forward" hand position would. (and you can glamorize it with leopard print duct tape!)

alabamaismylonging wrote:Thanks for the suggestions!


TH18, My hand is slipping toward the muzzle. I see what you're saying about twisting my hips, I'll work on that today as well. It's definitely my hand that's slipping.

I would try moving your left hand back until it is vertical then.

Like it said it would also raise your NPA up by doing that. If you need to lower your NPA after then you can either move your feet closer or move the buttplate down a little bit. I would try this before you buy anything as this may fix the problem.

In AR you can only have 90mm of gap between the center of the barrel and where the bottom of your palm rest is.

Also I shoot with the palm forward hand position and have never noticed any sort of tension in my wrist or anything. My standing is pretty much identical to Peter Sidi's which as strange as it may sound is actually very comfortable.

bpscCheney wrote:In AR you can only have 90mm of gap between the center of the barrel and where the bottom of your palm rest is.

This note made me go back and look closer at the rifle.
My above comments were assuming a smallbore rifle.

bpsCheney is correct, they are not valid for the air rifle. Measure from the bore center to the bottom of the stock ... if less than 90mm you could add some material or a palm rest block, but usually Anschutz air stocks are pretty close to the limit.

BigAl wrote:

bdutton wrote:

jhmartin wrote:

bdutton wrote:Try using some non slip/skater tape

Except for the rule:
7.4.2.5 Material that gives increased grip may not be added to the forend, pistol grip or lower part of the stock.

Now there is nothing that says you cannot rasp down and make rougher the stock down there.

Also, I think that the hand position shown may really stretch the tendons in the wrist causing the arm to naturally slip away from you a bit. ... How much have you tried to rotate your hand position 90° counter clockwise? If the position is then too low (which it may be) remember you have that rail on the bottom and can add some sort of palm rest.

Good catch on the rule. What if you add the grip tape to the glove? Or what about a fore-end riser block/palm rest that has the roughed up surface/tape. The rules state you can't add this to the stock but you can add a riser block and there is no rule (that I can find) against putting the non slip tape on that.

You are allowed to extend the stock downwards within the confines of the stock dimension rules for AR. However IIRC the extension must conform to the general shape of the stock, and would be considered part of the stock as far as the rules are concerned. At least thats how it used to be before the days of ally stocks in AR. So basically if EC would fail it on the actual stock they would fail it on any extension.

Alan

Not sure it does. Both the LG300, and 400 anatomic run a flat separate riser block.

http://www.carl-walther.de/assets/image ... 8008_3.jpg

7.4.2.5 is a farce rule... too many loopholes to go into.

Try it without jacket. Just see if it slips with the glove still... Also see what happens without trigger hand on the rifle. What does the rifle and hand want to do?

Could be the arm is just not vertical enough. Too much weight forward in the rifle can persuade the body to support the rifle forward to support it. But if the angle is not steep enough the weight wont push down and will pull forward.

robf wrote:Not sure it does. Both the LG300, and 400 anatomic run a flat separate riser block.
http://www.carl-walther.de/assets/image ... 8008_3.jpg

There are many ARs you can add some height via a palmrest ... maybe not much height, but some ... even back as far as an 2002CA.

robf wrote:7.4.2.5 is a farce rule... too many loopholes to go into.

The problem here Rob is that a jury can nail you ... yeah there are some out there.

My guess is they will only nail the stuff that doesn't look off the shelf. The fact that Walther add a grippy paint to their stocks seems to escape the Issf.

My take is there should not be the force to push the hand toward the muzzle and that's probably more key.

First, the air rifle stock you are using is close to being on the limit for the dimension from bore centre line to deepest part of the fore end which is 90mm maximum so forget adding any material there and besides I think it is not necessary.
I was a little bemused as to why your hand slips as the natural weight of the rifle should effectively lock your hand onto it.
I think what is happening is that that hand position for you is forcing the palm back too much at the wrist and the tendons in your wrist are trying to straighten it, the result is it is pushing along the underside of the stock, so it not so much slipping as being pushed.
I would advise that you turn your hand very slightly clockwise and let the rifle forend sit in the palm between thumb and curled fingers, almost like a prone hold. As your wrist will be straighter the height will be very slightly higher but no more than can be adjusted by a small right foot or a slight butt plate adjustment. I think you will also find it both a steadier and more comfortable hold.
Good shooting
Robin

Thanks Robin. I tried changing my hand position last night and I think it's similar to what you described. It's not slipping or being pushed anymore and I have a better hold. Here's a picture of my position last week vs last night. It's a lot more comfortable. Does it look better?

Have you tried a glove with black Top Grip rubber instead of the white suction cup stuff? I personally find that the Creedmoor gloves (and a similar Gehmann glove) are slippery. You mentioned your hand did not slide without the glove but it was not comfortable. Finding a glove that both fits your hand AND fits the shape of the rifle is important. Make sure it isn't too big either.

:)

Abi suggested a glove with "top grip" on the palm. KT makes a glove with top grip on the palm.

One other suggestion, is have you ever tried using a fist?

alabamaismylonging wrote:Thanks Robin. I tried changing my hand position last night and I think it's similar to what you described. It's not slipping or being pushed anymore and I have a better hold. Here's a picture of my position last week vs last night. It's a lot more comfortable. Does it look better?

That looks better, you could try straightening the wrist a little and moving the hand a tad forward, but I would not get too fixated with it just get on and train and forget about it.
Good luck and good shooting.
Robin