hello all,
i am a junior shooter and I have been training on a SCATT system and my hold is pretty tight; however, the length of the last second is pretty high, almost an average of 30. what is the best way to slpw my movement down? any help would be very appreciated.
Michael Geisecke
slower hold
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Hi Michael, Elizabeth Marsh's dad here. Adding weight to the muzzle will slow the hold. Are we talking air or sb? Elizabeth uses several ounces of muzzle weights on her air rifle. Since you have a scatt you can easily experiment and observe the effects. The weights will slow the hold but at some point will begin to make it larger. You just need to find the right balance. For air gun, I would max the weight out with the balance point about an inch in front of your hand.
thank you,
that is what ill work on for the next few days. I am also trying to approach the target from the top and slowly drop down onto the ten ring amd settle in quickly. however, I am havingtrouble with horizontal sway and settling quickly. I know a lot of this technique is breath control but I seem to be sstruggling.
regards
Michael Geisecke
that is what ill work on for the next few days. I am also trying to approach the target from the top and slowly drop down onto the ten ring amd settle in quickly. however, I am havingtrouble with horizontal sway and settling quickly. I know a lot of this technique is breath control but I seem to be sstruggling.
regards
Michael Geisecke
Michael, I wish I knew the magic formula for you. I will tell you the only formula I know. It will work, but requires time and hard work.....
Set as your objective for the month of September to improve your approach to the target in standing air rifle. Spend 30 minutes a day 3 to 5 days a week working on it.
Set up like you normally would to take a shot. Go through your shot plan to get your NPA. Once satisfied with NPA, take a medium breath. Your sights will rise, try to keep the sight line going up at 12:00. Pause, slowly let your breath out. The sights will sink to the 10 ring. Use your breath to let the sights sink slowly and at exactly 12:00. You should center on the bull when your breath is all the way out (not forced out, just natural exhale) As soon as you bottom out with your breath and start to see a hold develop, take another breath and repeat the process.
This will give you many repetitions in just a 30 min period. Save a SCATT file of your current approach and compare after 30 days. You will be surprised how much you will have improved. There may be better drills you can do, maybe someone with more knowledge than me will chime in here. All I can say is this has worked for us. The more you can break things down to one simple step and repeat over and over, the better.
Body sway? That is a more complicated subject (at least for me). Probably has a lot to do with your position. Don't know where to start trying to help you on that one. Sorry.
Set as your objective for the month of September to improve your approach to the target in standing air rifle. Spend 30 minutes a day 3 to 5 days a week working on it.
Set up like you normally would to take a shot. Go through your shot plan to get your NPA. Once satisfied with NPA, take a medium breath. Your sights will rise, try to keep the sight line going up at 12:00. Pause, slowly let your breath out. The sights will sink to the 10 ring. Use your breath to let the sights sink slowly and at exactly 12:00. You should center on the bull when your breath is all the way out (not forced out, just natural exhale) As soon as you bottom out with your breath and start to see a hold develop, take another breath and repeat the process.
This will give you many repetitions in just a 30 min period. Save a SCATT file of your current approach and compare after 30 days. You will be surprised how much you will have improved. There may be better drills you can do, maybe someone with more knowledge than me will chime in here. All I can say is this has worked for us. The more you can break things down to one simple step and repeat over and over, the better.
Body sway? That is a more complicated subject (at least for me). Probably has a lot to do with your position. Don't know where to start trying to help you on that one. Sorry.
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peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
Peashooter, I will comment on your question, but first allow me to make a disclaimer...
I am not a coach, not even a competitive shooter (current or former). My daughter took up precision shooting a little over a year ago and has progressed to a fairly high level in that short time. She is coached by Troy Bassham who we see for a few days every month or so. On a day to day basis I coach my daughter under his guidance. I normally do not weigh in on questions like Michael asked, but we have met him at some competitions and the drill I mentioned seems to have worked for my daughter. SO.....
Until a week ago I would have told you that you were doing something wrong if you are approaching the bull from the bottom in standing. Troy was here for a coaching session with my daughter and we had another shooter here who is one of the top women air rifle shooters in the country. When I first saw her scatt trace at standing AR, I was very surprised to see that she approached the bull from the bottom, 6:00. I asked Troy about it and he said it was not a problem, some people do. I intended to follow up with him about it, but did not think to ask him again before he left.
What I have seen with my daughter is that in standing with your elbow rested on your hip, when you breath in your chest and rib cage expand and that pushes your support arm out (up). When you let your breath out the ribs contract allowing the elbow to settle back on the hip bone and stop at your NPA. Honestly, I don't understand how this can happen in reverse with the gun lowering during an inhale and rising at exhale. Obviously, it does in kneeling and prone but that is a different position and the inflating of the chest works in the opposite direction on the gun.
The only piece of advice I can give you is this. Regardless of if you approach from the top or bottom, it should be centered at 6:00 or 12:00 and the approach line should be relatively smooth without any big rocking motion on the way in.
Maybe someone more experienced will chime in here and offer you more or better advice.
I am not a coach, not even a competitive shooter (current or former). My daughter took up precision shooting a little over a year ago and has progressed to a fairly high level in that short time. She is coached by Troy Bassham who we see for a few days every month or so. On a day to day basis I coach my daughter under his guidance. I normally do not weigh in on questions like Michael asked, but we have met him at some competitions and the drill I mentioned seems to have worked for my daughter. SO.....
Until a week ago I would have told you that you were doing something wrong if you are approaching the bull from the bottom in standing. Troy was here for a coaching session with my daughter and we had another shooter here who is one of the top women air rifle shooters in the country. When I first saw her scatt trace at standing AR, I was very surprised to see that she approached the bull from the bottom, 6:00. I asked Troy about it and he said it was not a problem, some people do. I intended to follow up with him about it, but did not think to ask him again before he left.
What I have seen with my daughter is that in standing with your elbow rested on your hip, when you breath in your chest and rib cage expand and that pushes your support arm out (up). When you let your breath out the ribs contract allowing the elbow to settle back on the hip bone and stop at your NPA. Honestly, I don't understand how this can happen in reverse with the gun lowering during an inhale and rising at exhale. Obviously, it does in kneeling and prone but that is a different position and the inflating of the chest works in the opposite direction on the gun.
The only piece of advice I can give you is this. Regardless of if you approach from the top or bottom, it should be centered at 6:00 or 12:00 and the approach line should be relatively smooth without any big rocking motion on the way in.
Maybe someone more experienced will chime in here and offer you more or better advice.
Hi Peashooter,
first thought, are you a prone shooter? As i know, this is the preferred position for most of the Kiwi rifle shooters. The movement of the rifle in that position works normal the way you describe. One tip, a NPA over the bull after breathing (normal) out may also not the best solution if it comes to prone shooting.
But serious, if your rifle moves like your describe in the standing position, it could be you are moving your right shoulder or arm (right hand shooter) or more general the right part of your body. Your right shoulder or arm goes ab and down while you are breathing. If you are able to relax your shoulder after breathing out and you can do this always the same way then there is nothing wrong with that and it seams to me, this is the same for the daughter of rmarsh, as he claims she comes from the 6 o'clock direction. But you are in trouble if you try to get more height with pushing your forehand or with your breathing volume. There is general one problem for many shooters in the standing position. After building the position the NPA is often to high and not to low at first, and then they do slightly correct that with moving their body. So they give up their prior good position and after that, most of then have the NPA to low. And than they are pushing the rifle to the right height and their wobbling will be much more. Sometimes it is not easy to see the real reason for faults.
Vertical movement of the rifle during breathing in the standing position is not an easy part to explain. Some shooters have movement there, but not all. It depends much from the position of the forearm on the hip or near by the hip. And as i said, the reason could also the movement of the right shoulder/arm.
General, holding or controlling the height with breathing and holding some volume back in the lungs can by difficult and faulty in all positions. It seams to me it is better to breathe normal out and then, if the height is not right, to use other small adjustments like slightly adjusting the butt plate or the position of the forehand. Small corrections are also possible with the feet or the right foot.
I do not often explain this more complicated parts of position shooting in my not native language so excuse some possible more sloppy points here.
Regards
Frank
first thought, are you a prone shooter? As i know, this is the preferred position for most of the Kiwi rifle shooters. The movement of the rifle in that position works normal the way you describe. One tip, a NPA over the bull after breathing (normal) out may also not the best solution if it comes to prone shooting.
But serious, if your rifle moves like your describe in the standing position, it could be you are moving your right shoulder or arm (right hand shooter) or more general the right part of your body. Your right shoulder or arm goes ab and down while you are breathing. If you are able to relax your shoulder after breathing out and you can do this always the same way then there is nothing wrong with that and it seams to me, this is the same for the daughter of rmarsh, as he claims she comes from the 6 o'clock direction. But you are in trouble if you try to get more height with pushing your forehand or with your breathing volume. There is general one problem for many shooters in the standing position. After building the position the NPA is often to high and not to low at first, and then they do slightly correct that with moving their body. So they give up their prior good position and after that, most of then have the NPA to low. And than they are pushing the rifle to the right height and their wobbling will be much more. Sometimes it is not easy to see the real reason for faults.
Vertical movement of the rifle during breathing in the standing position is not an easy part to explain. Some shooters have movement there, but not all. It depends much from the position of the forearm on the hip or near by the hip. And as i said, the reason could also the movement of the right shoulder/arm.
General, holding or controlling the height with breathing and holding some volume back in the lungs can by difficult and faulty in all positions. It seams to me it is better to breathe normal out and then, if the height is not right, to use other small adjustments like slightly adjusting the butt plate or the position of the forehand. Small corrections are also possible with the feet or the right foot.
I do not often explain this more complicated parts of position shooting in my not native language so excuse some possible more sloppy points here.
Regards
Frank
Hey Frank, thanks for commenting on this and helping out with answering peashooters question. Just for the record, my daughter comes in at 12:00 in standing. It was another top women shooter I watched shoot on scatt a week ago that has an approach from 6:00. I am a little perplexed at how a 6:00 approach is possible in standing, but this lady does it and does it very well.FrankD wrote:Hi Peashooter,
But serious, if your rifle moves like your describe in the standing position, it could be you are moving your right shoulder or arm (right hand shooter) or more general the right part of your body. Your right shoulder or arm goes ab and down while you are breathing. If you are able to relax your shoulder after breathing out and you can do this always the same way then there is nothing wrong with that and it seams to me, this is the same for the daughter of rmarsh, as he claims she comes from the 6 o'clock direction.
Regards
Frank
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peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
thanks for your replies.
I had another look at this.
In position, if npa is on the bull, if I belly breath there is almost no movement up and down. My left elbow is on my hip bone and it really is bone to bone - I'm very slim -so no movement up and down from the left quarter. If I take a big chest breath my right shoulder rises. So the sights must go down as the rifle must pivot on the left hand which is fixed.
I think it must depend on body shape and height.
Since I have this "problem" of the sights not moving up and down much when I breathe, I instead preaim over the sights at a spot actually below the target, then when I go to the sights I'm 100mm above the bull, breathe out letting the sights just drop to the bull. My hold is good on arrival but quickly goes bad - 2-3 secs.
I had another look at this.
In position, if npa is on the bull, if I belly breath there is almost no movement up and down. My left elbow is on my hip bone and it really is bone to bone - I'm very slim -so no movement up and down from the left quarter. If I take a big chest breath my right shoulder rises. So the sights must go down as the rifle must pivot on the left hand which is fixed.
I think it must depend on body shape and height.
Since I have this "problem" of the sights not moving up and down much when I breathe, I instead preaim over the sights at a spot actually below the target, then when I go to the sights I'm 100mm above the bull, breathe out letting the sights just drop to the bull. My hold is good on arrival but quickly goes bad - 2-3 secs.
peashooter
No matter which way you approach the bull, you must use a full (normal, not forced) exhalation (to the normal respiratory pause), and have the sights perfectly aligned on the bull at that point. Your body is at it's most relaxed then, and your hold should last a little longer than if you are artificially stopping the sights on target by "holding" your breath (using muscle tension and burning additional oxygen). Make whatever slight changes in your stance that are needed to bring you on target in the fully relaxed position during the "natural respiratory pause".
No matter which way you approach the bull, you must use a full (normal, not forced) exhalation (to the normal respiratory pause), and have the sights perfectly aligned on the bull at that point. Your body is at it's most relaxed then, and your hold should last a little longer than if you are artificially stopping the sights on target by "holding" your breath (using muscle tension and burning additional oxygen). Make whatever slight changes in your stance that are needed to bring you on target in the fully relaxed position during the "natural respiratory pause".
Peashooter, I'm self taught on position shooting, but have been doing it for 15+ yrs, so I have tried a lot of "stuff". It sounds to me your NPA is a little high. There are several ways to correct this, easiest may be to move the butt plate. Remember down moves muzzle down and up moves it up. Next you can move your support arm out on the forearm a bit( as in toward the muzzle of the rifle). Or you can slide your rear foot in a bit, not much a little does a lot. I would try one of the first two, I don't like to move the feet. You almost sound like your "pulling" your elbow down to your hipbone. The position should be relaxed. All this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. :-) You can try each tip or ignore all of them.
Hope this helps,
Scott
Hope this helps,
Scott
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peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
peashooter:
Don't get hung up on a "Correct" way. All that matters is that "your way" is consistent.
Try this. Get into position, keeping eyes closed, then open your eyes and see if you have a perfect sight picture. If not. close your eyes, make the very small foot correction needed, open your eyes and find you have, or not the perfect sight picture. Continue until you can close and open your eyes and have the perfect sight picture. How did you get there? What does it matter? You are there. Now learn to let the shot go before the hold deteriorates.
Don't get hung up on a "Correct" way. All that matters is that "your way" is consistent.
Try this. Get into position, keeping eyes closed, then open your eyes and see if you have a perfect sight picture. If not. close your eyes, make the very small foot correction needed, open your eyes and find you have, or not the perfect sight picture. Continue until you can close and open your eyes and have the perfect sight picture. How did you get there? What does it matter? You are there. Now learn to let the shot go before the hold deteriorates.
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peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
Yes. Have someone time you from the time they see you ""settle" until you fire. A8-9 seconds they call "cease fire" if you have not fired. A timer can be used, but it adds the starting of the time to the shot routine.
Eventually your un(sub)-conscious will begin to accept the "first ten" instead of trying to shoot the "perfect shot".
Later you will find an occasional shot that will "go off" just as you open your eyes, cheek on the stock. Surprisingly these shots will be deep tens, because the un(sub)-conscious recognized the requirements for the deep shot before you had a chance to think about it. The mystical "automagical shot".
Imagine how this could help over a course of fire. The more you practice, it, the more often it will happen, but you must "let" it happen, not try to "make" it happen.
Eventually your un(sub)-conscious will begin to accept the "first ten" instead of trying to shoot the "perfect shot".
Later you will find an occasional shot that will "go off" just as you open your eyes, cheek on the stock. Surprisingly these shots will be deep tens, because the un(sub)-conscious recognized the requirements for the deep shot before you had a chance to think about it. The mystical "automagical shot".
Imagine how this could help over a course of fire. The more you practice, it, the more often it will happen, but you must "let" it happen, not try to "make" it happen.
God I love those "automagical shot" moments. The initial reaction is usually "what the hell just happened" then you look in the scope or whatever and it's taken the centre out of the X ring. I just wish they could all be like that.Pat McCoy wrote: Later you will find an occasional shot that will "go off" just as you open your eyes, cheek on the stock. Surprisingly these shots will be deep tens, because the un(sub)-conscious recognized the requirements for the deep shot before you had a chance to think about it. The mystical "automagical shot".
Imagine how this could help over a course of fire. The more you practice, it, the more often it will happen, but you must "let" it happen, not try to "make" it happen.
Personally I don't think it matters too much what your approach looks like, as long as it IS really repeatable for EVERY shot. Then all that remains is to ensure that it always starts and finishes in the same places. Of course that is just as hard as getting the consistent approach in the first place.
Alan