TargetTalk

I sometimes find myself in silent disagreement with the scorer of my match cards (25 yards prone multi-bull targets, U.K./N.S.R.A. outward scoring rules), usually because, apparently, I have been too optimistic in scoring my card with a plastic eagle eye before the card is sent away to the adjudicator. What is the explanation of this, given that I naturally try to guard against undue optimism in reading the gauge and that my eyesight is still pretty good? Is my gauge - some 30 years old, perhaps an Andrew Tucker model?? - too coarse in the engraved lines on the plastic? Are modern eagle eye gauges more accurate? Are the brass gauges always to be preferred anyway? Have I misunderstood the outward scoring rules - I have always assumed, rather in line with the current 'no ball' rule in cricket, that so long as some part of the 10 ring line is visible when the gauge is centered on the bullet hole, even if it is slightly infringed upon by the outer ring of my plastic scoring gauge, the shot is 'in'? (Of course, the shot is 'out' if any part of the 10 ring line is cut by the actual bullet hole itself.) Do official scorers, with hundreds, if not one or two thousands of bullet holes to assess at any one time, sometimes make pardonable mistakes e.g. by relying upon eye and experience, to save time, when a gauge ought to be used? None of this should be taken as criticism of the system under which I shoot or of the unpaid volunteers who man it, but I am anxious to understand where I am going wrong in my own assessments.

Cumbrian,

as far as I'm aware the brass push gauges are the only ones allowed for official scoring. Visual gauges are useful to give one an idea, especially in competitions that employ a central scorer, but are less accurate.

Yes some scorers do make mistakes; I've seen many, from simple arithmetical errors to ham-fisted idiocy. For this reason my county (Somerset) moved to a central scorer two years ago, but are now returning to club scoring, but only where an official club scorer has completed the NSRA scoring course.

You're confusing the plastic overlays with an actual "Eagle Eye" which magnifies the hole and an overlay built into the device.

The actual "Eagle Eye" is pretty brutal: you can't get away with anything!

Rover,

I don't think he is. Magnifying visual gauges are very common here, but I have never seen anyone use an overlay gauge for prone.

However even the magnifying gauges are less accurate than a proper push gauge.

I am suprised you are allowed to test before sending them to an "Official" marker it is not allowed here due to the potential damage to the Bullet hole by careless use of a Tester.

Overlays are very common with the pistol shooters because anyone can test before calling for a referee with a plug and the ensuing fee. Most disputes are solved on the spot. The Eagle Eye is mainly used for air pistol scoring that is not usually done by the participants.

Rover wrote:Overlays are very common with the pistol shooters because anyone can test before calling for a referee with a plug and the ensuing fee. Most disputes are solved on the spot. The Eagle Eye is mainly used for air pistol scoring that is not usually done by the participants.

But they are not popular for prone rifle in the UK. We only shoot with one calibre, and scoring is on the outer/worst edge*. Most indoor short range (20 and 25yd) competitions are conducted by post. Some allow marking by nominasted club officials, others require scoring by the central stats officer.

Martin,

to the best of my knowledge, the use of non-intrusive visual gauges is accepted. Obviously push-gaues cannot be used in centrally-scored cards, but a visual gauge should not damage the bullet hole.

*This is a British peculiarity that dates back to the 1960s at least. When the NSRA attempted to synch UK and UIT targets it was found that at 15 yards the bull would have to be smaller than 0, so the decision was taken to make the bull larger but score on the outer edge.

Martin Catley wrote:I am suprised you are allowed to test before sending them to an "Official" marker it is not allowed here due to the potential damage to the Bullet hole by careless use of a Tester.

I've never heard that an informal perusal with a plastic magnifying gauge is not permitted. Such gauges are freely on sale here, though how popular they are I don't know. I can't see how resting one of them on the card could damage the bullet hole because the printed side is left flush by the impact and the rough edges of the hole, which could perhaps be disturbed by the gauge, are on the reverse side, which is of no interest to the shooter for scoring purposes.

Sorry I jumped to the conclusion that there was talk of using a plug type tester with a magnifyer on it like the old Rig testers of days gone by.

I always use an eagle eye for .177, and find it good enough; I have a scoring plug but did not need it.

I am not sure if eagle is good enough for .22lr.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page:

http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepis ... oductid=79

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-Eye-Magni ... 0719118600

Rover wrote:Just to make sure we're all on the same page:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-Eye-Magni ... 0719118600

I got mine from Jean, .177/.22, highly recommended.
I only used a scoring overlay once since I could not be 100% sure if the eagle eye was correct in one particular instance. I have never use the use my scoring plug.

The cases which I most often use these tools are when two projectiles are so close together that it is difficult to determine their scores. I have YET to be in a tournament in which a system of one shot per target is used.

Rover wrote:Just to make sure we're all on the same page:

http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepis ... oductid=79

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-Eye-Magni ... 0719118600

Yes, those are magnifying gauges. This is what is normally used to score competition cards.

http://www.nsrashop.co.uk/acatalog/Scoring_Gauges.html

As you can see, the brass push gauge can only be used once as it distorts the bullet hole.

anyone reading this thread please note that it relates to internal 'national' events, not ISSF

One of the "problems" of all scoring gauges plug or otherwise is that no matter how well made they all have some slight tolerance. I have been at a shoot where during a protest a different gauge was used to replug the target and one went "in" the other "out", I think they resolved it by only using the one plug gauge for each distance of the Dewar course, even for any protest.

So I am not surprised to hear that you have an Eagle eye gauge that consistently disagrees with the scorers gauge.

Alan

BigAl wrote:I have been at a shoot where during a protest a different gauge was used to replug the target .................

Well that certainly wasn't according to ISSF rules.

[quote="David LeveneWell that certainly wasn't according to ISSF rules.[/quote]

Obviously not if it was a Dewar match!

David Levene wrote:

BigAl wrote:I have been at a shoot where during a protest a different gauge was used to replug the target .................

Well that certainly wasn't according to ISSF rules.

Nor dewar or NSRA rule either, once the plug gauge is inserted it should not be removed until a score has been agreed. If there is doubt by the scorer then 1or more witnesses should be employed and a score agreed upon. Under no circumstance should the gauge be removed until then. Re gauging a card is never accurate. I score several hundred cards a season (summer/winter leagues at county level) and there was a problem a few seasons ago when I took over from the previous scorer. It was obvious that some cards were being gauged before I was receiving them, a blanket email warning wasn't taken seriously so when the offenders averages fell by an average of 4 to 5 points they soon got the message.

If you want a guide of your score before being officially scored the eagle eye scoring gauge does a reasonable job, but is only a guide.

Only official scoring gauges sold by the NSRA should be used to score uk postal comps following NSRA rules, but it is my bet that several clubs will not be using them or are using the wrong gauge.

There is an official specification inc tolerances for each gauge published in the NSRA handbook you could ask your scorer if his gauges are to spec and what method he is following you are quite within your rights to do that.

Failing that just shoot closer to the centre :-) !!

I'm sorry to have got so many folks upset. The incident I referred to happened at a small (UK) county shoot shot under NSRA rules. The targets were all scored, but a challenge for a higher score was received. I believe that at that point the target will be regauged, but normally only the once. I thought that this was the same procedure that they use at the NSRA August rifle meeting at Bisley too? My aim was to simply remind people that even the official gauges may have some variation from gauge to gauge due to the needs for engineering tolerances.

Without looking at the rules I am not sure of the tolerances allowable under either ISSF or NSRA rules. I do know that the stated size is a MAXIMUM and the tolerance is for how far undersize is allowable. The gauges are also specified differently for metric or imperial, 0.223" or 5.56 mm respectively if memory serves from seeing a copy of the rules. When you look at the specifications you would think that the difference would be that small that you would not be able to see a difference in the "result". I do know that the gauges in question were both the "correct gauge for the job", and the one officially supplied by the NSRA.

I agree that with postal shooting any interfering with the shot hole should be penalised, and is something that people should realise is very obvious to those who score a large number of cards. As long as a scorer is consistent in method, and uses the same gauge for all cards it really makes no difference to the overall result of the competition, although there may be a very small difference in the averages. At least with central scoring all of the cards shot in the competition are scored to the same standard. I also think we should be grateful for all the hard work that the scorers do, without them we really would have no postal leagues. It is all to easy for folks to complain though about work done by volunteers.

Alan

BigAl wrote:Without looking at the rules I am not sure of the tolerances allowable under either ISSF or NSRA rules. I do know that the stated size is a MAXIMUM and the tolerance is for how far undersize is allowable.

Sorry, no. The tolerance is how much oversize is allowable.

Under ISSF rules the gauge for .22LR must be 5.60mm +0.05/-0.00mm.
The same metric dimensions under NSRA rules: Imperial 0.22in +0.002in/-0.00in.