TargetTalk

SO I decided to start taking air rifle seriously. I have a refurbished Daisy 853 from CMP. I'm finding that the traditional 10m air rifle off-hand position is very difficult for me with this gun.

Looking at competitions, it seems that most shooters have the rear stock adjusted in such a way that the buttplate is very very low, and the comb is very high. The 853 stock (Monte Carlo) is quite a bit different. On top of that, I can't seem to get the gun high enough. I feel like I need an extra 2-3" on top of my hand. It also seems that ISSF style air rifles have a very low foregrip to help with height.

Am I reading the situation accurately?

I don't want to dish out the money on a german PCP until I shoot better than my Daisy, which I assure you, I am not. But I still want to practice off-hand.

Shall I work on my sporter style stance, or figure out a way to make this stock work?

The Daisy air rifles suck pretty hard on several levels, most notably the trigger. You would be well served, IMO, to get something better. If you don't want to go the PCP route, look for a used SSP rifle. Message Jim E. or scope out the classifieds here. I don't think you'll be disappointed, and you'll be able to get most if not all of your money back when you feel ready to upgrade to a high-end PCP rifle.

I don't know much about rifles, but have you think of getting an old FWB300 so you can get back into the groove first?

I think what you are seeing is the desire to position the head in an upright position. To do that, you have to raise the rifle so you don't bend your head over. Here the guys with long necks are at a disadvantage to the guys with short necks.

I hold and shoot my 953 similarly to how I hold my FWB-P70-Jr.

Even with the precision rifles, there is a limit as to how far down the butt pad can be positioned. With the x53 rifles, you have 3 options
#1 - Do as the AR15/M16 shooters do. Position the butt high on the shoulder. So the bottom corner of the butt might be the only thing touching the shoulder, not the entire butt pad.
#2 - Lower the rifle so the butt pad fits to your shoulder, then lower your head.
#3 - Which you cannot do in a match that follows the standard rules but you are free to do for casual use at home. This is to make a custom butt pad extension with the butt pad at a lower height.

You can also put sight risers under the sights to raise the sights. If I remember right, the center of the sight can be up to 60mm above the center of the barrel.

Yes the forestock of a precision rifle is at the level of the bottom of the trigger guard. This is lower than that of the x53 rifles. On the x53 rifles, this is driven by the pump handle. But that difference is only inch or so, not 2-3 inches. And the bottom of the charging handle is at the same level as the bottom of the trigger guard.

#1 - Position your support hand. The bottom of the charging handle is at the same level as the bottom of the trigger guard, and that is where I rest the rifle on my support hand. So x53 and precision are supported at the same level, the bottom of the trigger guard.

#2 - You have to experiment with different ways of forming your support hand. I shoot with my support hand in a fist and rest the rifle on the first 2 knuckles. This is 2 inches higher than my open palm. Some shooter will support the rifle on the extended fingers to get even more height. There are some ideas in the Canadian Cadet Shooting Manual or Ways of the Rifle.

#3 - You will have to adjust your stance to tilt your upper body so you can elevate the rifle more. I do that my adjusting the position of my rear leg. Further back and my hip tilts more and I get more elevation.

The x53 triggers will never be as good as a precision rifle trigger, but once tuned (which you REALLY should do, and is an easy DIY) is perfectly fine for a casual home shooter with a budget.

Hi:

I had the same problem and as I only shoot at home now didn't have to worry about the rules involved in Sporter Competition. If you shoot Precison I don't think you will have a problem.

My Solution:

I ordered a QB57 adjustable but plate (in parts section) from Archer Airguns (not a plug, just the only place I could find one). If I remember correctly the original top mounting hole can be used but a new bottom mounting hole will be necessary. The QB57 butplate is probably 1" or so thicker than the stock butplate which helps the short LOP of the stock gun. I also cut a flat black plastic piece the same shape as the rifle's butstock to cover the bare wood (on the 853). This piece can be made thicker if you need additional LOP (as with the plastic inserts from Daisy). The QB57 butplate will hang down lower than the bottom of the stock, but given the look of the other high end adjusatble guns it doesn't bother me.

I also cut a 3/4" piece of black plastic contoured to fit the cocking lever handle to form a "palm rest" to aid my shooting position. I drilled and tapped the cocking handle to attach the "palm rest" with two machine screws. On mine it's about 1 1/2" deep and nicely rounded on the bottom.

I use the Chinese Gamo clone sights from Daisy (they can be fetteled to work correctly with a little work and they are cheap) so the sight line is higher than the standard 853 sights. This can be compensated for by cutting a piece of flat plastic the shape of a Monte Carlo cheek piece. I heat bent the top to fold over the top of the stock. It is held with two screws into the top of the stock and can be adjusted by placing washers under it where the screws go through.

You can also raise the sight line by adding 3/8" risers cut from an inexpensive single piece scope riser bar. You will need to raise the front sight with a piece of the bar as well.

The Pilkington trigger tune is a must if you are at all serious. If you don't have to pass a pull test, removing the spring(s?) from the trigger group except the big main spring on the Hammer and the little spring on the bolt safety device (at the rear of the gun). You can achieve a very light but safe trigger. The Hammer spring exerts enough pressure on the trigger group and mine easily passes the bump test. I also shortened the little spring at the back a bit, but go easy, too much and it will autofire when the pump lever is shut. I find slamming the cockinglever home a better test than the bump test for the lightest safe trigger.

These changes are not ment to cheat the rules in competition, only to provide a simple and effective target rifle on the cheap. With good pellets (Vogle or whatever works best for you) mine will outshoot me and all of my friends any day of the week, but in isn't Olympic grade. With my tired old eyes I also use Doller Store reading glasses when shooting. I bought several different ones to get it right. The ones you want will keep the front sight focused at the expense of a somewhat blurred target bull.

Sorry to be so long winded but hope this helps.

Cheers,
Fatman

A very long time ago I had an 853 when I was a junior. I never had the issues you describe. However two problems I did have was 1) the rifle was too light to slow my hold to get consistent proper scores firing 10 m air rifle. 2) the air tank in the rifle ruptured after less than two years of use. It couldn't be repaired when I shipped it to Daisy. I eventually upgraded to a RWS Diana (good value at that time) and my scores improved. If you are able you may wish to upgrade to a one step up higher end air rifle. Just a thought to take or leave.

Just great to see the well thought out responses and experience shared. This is why I keep coming back to this forum.

Hi again:

As you are an adult and serious about shooting, here's another trigger trip. If you charge (pump) the rifle befor cocking and loading, you can adjust the trigger to "Scary Light" without premature discharge. It can be adjusted very short and feather light, but you must observe all the safety rules religeously.

I find too short a trigger to be a detriment. Check out Nygords shooting tips (pistol oriented but relevent here as well). It seems with a lot of practice your sub-conscious will compensate with your aiming drift and as the rifle sways toward dead center, you will find that you will release the shot at just as your sway hits center. Just a small amout of trigger travel will allow this to happen. It doesn't work for everyone, and I only noticed it after a lot of practice sessions.

Another invaluable aid is to buy the rediculosly expensive "Ways of the Rifle". Read it and re-read it. Re-read it again. It is the next best thing to having a very good coach and invaluable in getting the right position.

I found the 753 (or the plastic 953) "Target" stocks more to my liking than the 853. They are available from Daisy at around $70 (last time I checked) and will help with the problems you describe.

I eventually wound up with a 953 stock, the Monecarlo stock cheek riser, the cocking lever palm rest and the 3/8 risers. and the 753 target sights as noted previously. It gives a very upright head position and improved my scores a lot. It could use a 3/4" grip extension as when my hold is correct (with the trigger finger parallel to the barrel), my little finger is below the existing pistol grip (I havn't got around to it yet, but it's on my to do list).

With this setup, you must pay very close attention to keeping the rifle upright and in exactly the same position every time as any rotation will adversly affect the point of impact (due to the greater distance of the sight line to the barrel center) Ideally the center of the sight would be the same as the center of the barrel.

There are a lot of detractors for the Diasy rifles out there and they have some good points, but the rifles are a great way to get into 10 meter on the cheap (and having a lot of fun along the way). With a little fetteling, the right pellets, and a good shooter, they will shoot 10's all day long.

Check the feed throat on yours to make sure the barrel is correctly centered in the receiver. I have had two there the receiver casting was out and the barrel wasn't centered in the breecn block and was shaving pellets. I returned them to Daisy with a diagram and explanation and they replaced them at no charge. They are great to work with.

If your barrel doesn't have the expected accuracy and the feed throat is good, check the crown. If it needs attention, the brass screw in an electric drill and valve grinding compound can correct it. Be sure to roatate a bit in reverse near the finish to elimimate any burr raised by the initial grinding. It's low tech but it works. Sometimes a few passes with JB compound on a swab will improve things as well.

The sights are not Olympic grade so set them at the middle of their adjustment. With the rear sight in the center of its Left/Right adjustment, rotate the front to get centered on the bull (it goes opposite to the desired direction of change i.e. rotate left to move the POI to the right).

Centering helps keep the sight more stable and repeatable than at the extremes of travel. You can also shim the mounting up with a thin shim if you find yourself a half click off Point of Aim in the verticle plane (i.e. you are either half a click high or low from dead center POI when the sight is centered, very slight rotation of the front sight can compensate in the horizontal as well).

With a little attention these much maligned and often overlooked poor boys will shoot way better than their class.

Even the renouned Winchester 70, the premier sniper rifle of old, required some fetteling to get it right. No self respecting sniper would go out without a gun that had been breathed on by a top armorer. Check out the number of Olympic small bore shooters who upgrate to Liega barrels, and that's with very high end (expensive) guns.

Most of all have fun. With a lot of practice and some "can do" you may even surprise youself.

Cheers,
Fatman