TargetTalk

Hi,

International Competitions “Grand Prix of Wroclaw” (Poland) is over. As a TD I have collected a few questions/remarks.

1. Safety flags work well for air rifles, but for some air pistols there were problems - compensators cause that a safety flag is blocked in the barrel and shooters fight desperately to fix the problem :-)

2. In a 50m rifle prone 4/8 finalists forgot to use flags before a presentation.

3. During 7 and 9 min changeover in 3P rifle there was an unbelievable mess, shooters running forward and back with their rifles, etc. I suppose it will be a real problem to fix all the equipment in one box. Maybe it is just question of time/experience. BTW, ladies keep their equipment in much higher order :-).

4. During a 25m pistol final, medalists have to move on #3 I #8 firing points. So, either they have to pack all the stuff to move 1.5 m from #2 -> #3 for example, or they just walk with pistols etc. between firing points. Looks bad…

5. Scoring qualification (AR, 50m rifle) in tenths works perfectly! I have discussed with shooters, no one complained.

Some photos :-)









More photos: http://www.pzss.org.pl/index.php?option ... Itemid=166

Grzegorz wrote:1. Safety flags work well for air rifles, but for some air pistols there were problems - compensators cause that a safety flag is blocked in the barrel and shooters fight desperately to fix the problem :-)

One of the most difficult pistols is the Morini 162.

We have found that if you feed a drinking straw in to the compensator you can then feed the line through that. (I have a more robust version; a short length of small bore brass tube with a washer soldered to it to stop it disappearing into the barrel).

After the first 50 or so attempts you learn how to do it using only 2 of your 3 hands ;-)

Some pictures +


2 in 1 :-)


Forgotten...


job :-)

There are some interpretations, but... need more, I suppose...

http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... 202013.pdf

Which rule says that qualifications are now scored in decimals?

bluetentacle wrote:Which rule says that qualifications are now scored in decimals?

6.3.4 (a) Rifle and Pistol targets may be scored in full ring values or, if
ESTs are used, in decimal ring values. Decimal ring scores
are determined by dividing the scoring area for one full ring
into ten equal scoring rings that are designated with decimal
values starting with zero (i.e. 10.0, 9.0, etc.) and ending with
nine (i. e. 10.9, 9.9, etc.).

I am sorry to ask an old question, but I live out in the sticks and only shoot by myself. Do you have to use a safety flag in the muzzle and the breach now?


Thanks,

Dwight

K38 wrote:I am sorry to ask an old question, but I live out in the sticks and only shoot by myself. Do you have to use a safety flag in the muzzle and the breach now?

See the answers to your similar question in the "Olympic Pistol" section.

Thanks!!

Yes for both air rifle and air pistols the flag has to extend out of both the breach and barrel.

Decimal scoring works perfectly?

Example: 40 shot match, non decimal shooter A shoots 35 X 9's and 5 X 10's for 365, shooter B shoots 40 X 10's for 400, a highest possible and could even have shot a world record.
Decimal, same competition, shooter A shoots 35 X 9.9's and 5 X 10.9's for 401, shooter B shoots 40 X 10.0's for 400!
A 400 beaten by a 365! Sorry, thats just plain crazy!
By all means split ties by decimal but come on lets get real here!

Guest who can add up wrote:Decimal scoring works perfectly?

Example: 40 shot match, non decimal shooter A shoots 35 X 9's and 5 X 10's for 365, shooter B shoots 40 X 10's for 400, a highest possible and could even have shot a world record.
Decimal, same competition, shooter A shoots 35 X 9.9's and 5 X 10.9's for 401, shooter B shoots 40 X 10.0's for 400!
A 400 beaten by a 365! Sorry, thats just plain crazy!
By all means split ties by decimal but come on lets get real here!

I think you are using flawed logic. You count to much on the big "made up" difference between a 9.9 and 10.0. Lets say they instead moved the 10.0 ring to 10.1 to make it a little more difficult to get a ten. What happens to your example then? (you have a 365 (397,5) result beat a 340 (396) result either way)

However, if they decide to keep decimal scoring, I would hope they instead make the target a 100-ring target (which it actually is) and score a shot between 0 and 100 (10.9 is a 100 and 10.0 is a 91). Then it would be easier for the audience to actually make sense of the scoring. 6000 as a perfect maximum should be more intuitive right than 654,0 which it is at the moment (for a 60-shot).

Flawed logic wrote:I think you are using flawed logic.

I agree. There is nothing magical about the size of the 10 ring; certainly not enough that a 10% difference in the score can be the result of being a few thousandths of an inch further away from the centre of the target.

look at the real scores of real shooters...not something made up. The shooters that consistantly win have higher dec scoring and higher 10x counts...of course they do...they are better

I am not surprised, that some misleading examples grow up. Many shooters are simply used to apply the old system FIRST, and THEN to look how a new system works. When important differences are present, conclusions: “Oh, it does not work properly!” are expressed. In fact, a correct way to compare results given by both systems should be done in opposite direction. FIRST, look at results in decimals, and THEN look what it would give in integers. Then you see clearly that the old system has been no precise enough.

The old system - it is like trying to measure which piece of paper is thicker, by the use of a pupils ruler…

The new system – it is like using a caliper gauge to do that.

Decide yourself which method is a correct one…

Seeking help

I understand that a number of organisations require the use of safety flags (4H, Fulbore Rifle...)

Apart from the ISSF (Rule 6.2.2.2), what other shooting organisations require the use of safety flags?

Organisation name and rule number/s would help.

Here in the US, all members of the National 3-P Air Rifle Council require Clear Barrel Indicators (CBI's) for air.
Members of this council are:
The American Legion, Boy Scouts of America, Civilian Marksmanship Program, Daisy/U. S. Jaycees Shooter Education Program, National 4-H Shooting Sports, The U. S. Army Marksmanship Unit, USA Shooting and the Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force JROTC Commands.

Rule reference in the N3PARC rulebook: Rule 2.2
Rulebook can be had at:
http://www.odcmp.com/3P/Rulebook.htm

These were first required in 2005 after a series of incidents that shut down the JROTC shooting programs for about 3 months while these safety measures went into effect.

The NRA was also involved in this process and picked up the requirement as well ... Rule 3.21.

It is pretty much an ingrained habit now for these shooters. And for those who worry about barrel wear ... we have not seen one instance where a properly maintained CBI has ever damaged a barrel. (i.e. don't throw them on the floor or in the dirt ... if you do, wipe them off before you insert them into your barrel)

Spencer wrote:Seeking help

I understand that a number of organisations require the use of safety flags (4H, Fulbore Rifle...)

Apart from the ISSF (Rule 6.2.2.2), what other shooting organisations require the use of safety flags?

Organisation name and rule number/s would help.

I thought the German bundersliga required CBI's but I don't know for sure. Certainly the UK scouts do and have done for some years.

Rob.

CBI is an oxymoron.

The first time a knock open valve fails with one of these in perhaps we will see why sticking something into the barrel past the transfer port is a pretty idiotic way of showing a barrel is clear.

Sad to see the sport displaying such basic safety ignorance.

It wi be fine until someone assumes the practice works in all air rifles then pus the trigger on one brand and finds the electronic trigger works with bolt open and discharges air into the barrel and buries one of these things into hopefully nothing more serious than a ceiling.

Clear barrel indictor... Ffs.

You paint an amusing picture Rob. Got me wondering about the aerodynamics of weedwacker line now. I'm imagining it landing sideways with a very loud smack... ffs indeed. Silly me when all I could think of as a basis upon which to object to this silliness was the potential for sand-contaminated nylon scratching softer barrels like that of the 46m. Besides it just being silly and annoying I mean.