TargetTalk

Recently a friend's kid wanted to get into air pistol. He was not 100% "right in the head", but he did convince his mother to let him try.

I want to know if you can KILL someone using a modern PCP competition air pistol, whether it is using a competition pellet, or a hunting pellet. This include if the kid hold the pistol aiming directly at another child's temple or right behind the ears less than an inch away, or directly between the eyes, or towards an eye at an angle. Basically any potential weak points of the human anatomy.

Also, can one suffer serious non-reversible injury other than being blind, like brain damage.

I need to have some advice or even concrete data so that the kid can take this seriously. I do not plan to teach him air pistol anymore because he has demonstrated alarming anti-social psychological problems. But I need to inform him about the true danger, and also to his mom. They have the impression that it is merely a BB gun and as long as you don't aim at the eyes, you are OK. He already started to ask his mom to have my misses teach him real rifle, and my misses says no.

I cannot tell my friend that her kid will be in my opinion a danger to the society in the future, it is not my right. I actually did raise the issue once but the mom totally ignored and dismissed my concerns. But at least I want her to understand the situation, and also I do not want to be responsible for any future disaster. If I do not teach the kid any pistol, there is one less chance of him using it.

So far the kid has pulled out a locked air soft, convincing his guardian that he knew what to do BECAUSE he had one lesson with me in air pistol, and proceeded to fire indiscriminately. Also, he made home made real gun powder rockets and set them firing inside his own room whenever he had a fight with his mom. Since I was not there, I cannot confirm this, but for the former incident the guardian thought it was "cool" and was totally fooled by this kid, and had no idea about the danger of any pistol. Also the pistol does not even belonged to the guardian, it belongs to the step dad. For the latter, the mom actually was proud of his son's smartness in science for able to do home made rockets and set them in his room exploding.

She convinced me that her kid is in long term therapy with a very good shrink for awhile now, that nothing will ever happen. Let's hope she is right. Personally I am 100% convince that the kid will pass any background heck with flying colors. He has an scarily incredibly high IQ. He has no friends but managed to convince his mother he has a social life. His mother has NEVER met any of his "friends".

It's hard to give a sensible answer, and I can see that any action can have an unpredictable outcome.

I suggest you Google: air pistol injury (I tried)

This should give you sufficient info to answer your questions.
Just reading the first half dozen hits provides the needed statistics etc.

Yes you can. Anything with ample speed shot into the eye wíll cause serious injury or death cause it wilenter the brain.
Mind you, most accidents dont appen with those very powerfull bigbore airguns, they happen with normal, quite light, airguns kids gotten their hands on (or got from parents)!
We had an example here in Holland, I thínk the kid was shot in his ear and died.

Besides that, I dunno whats wrong with the kid in question, I ónly know that most danger is usually from those you DONT expect it from, and most people with serious mental problems are not ín a psychward but óut, if you know what I mean.

In my opinion gun safety is gun safety regardless.
Air pistols are treated just like high power rifles in a match and should be treated as such in every other facet.
If a person needs data to be convinced of that, then I would have ZERO to do with them in any way shape or form. If you don't take firearms safety seriously, then I don't want to be around you. You learn it by practicing it early and often.
Activities such as those you describe would get you immediately thrown off the line in any match.

Can you contact the kid's shrink? The boy may be lying to his therapist about having a pistol and his experiments with pyrotechnics and that would be critical information. It is possible that the therapist already knows all of this, but I don't see that there is anything else you could do. In the very least, it might CYA if the kid tells someone that you somehow supported his having an air gun after something unfortunate happens.

Roger

conradin

I would advise the boy's mother, that the behavior of her son isn't compatible with the kind of shooting you do (I supposed ISSF), and that his behavior is likely to produce some sort of accident. And if it was me, I would specifically tell her that I do not want to be involved in the boy's pistol or rifle education.

After doing the google search that luftskytter suggested, this article caught my eye:
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... clekey=628
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1888038.stm

It should provide the mother with sufficient data to scare her (a good thing in this case).

The kid may mean well, but if he is not mature enough to handle a air gun in a safe way, then he shouldn't be allowed to have one.

Conradin, how old is this kid? I would never attempt to teach pistol to a kid under 14 or 15, and it should be a mature and calm 14 or 15. Based on your description, I think you need to warn, and then get as far away from this situation as possible, to protect yourself from any legal liability.

Hi,

i know that an air-pellet shot by an lp-10 shoots through 6 mm MDF at a distance of 10 meters.

I found the next video on youtube, where a guy is testing penetration of air-pellets on house wax.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwaJR9mSvjI

I think an air-pellet can be deadly if the pellet hits the right spot (weak parts etc)

The next two movies are about air-pellets penetrating ballistic gel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZfute--upc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8ejotkdbBU

Is 5.38 inch penetrations deadly? this is 13.7 cm and if it enters into the belly it can penetrate the heart
shot through the eye and it will stop and the end of the skull

My advice is always be present if a kid handles these kind of air pistols
but in my home country the rules are different.


mad

I'm aware of one instance where a kid popped his friend in the back of the head with an air pistol. I have no idea of his state of mind.

Instant kill.

the answer is: absolutely. If we're talking about placing a shot then yes, it can very easily get to the brain, which is a kill or as bad as a kill. Couple 500 fps with a pointed hunting pellet and a chest shot could probably reach the heart, much less pass through the eye or the eggshell-thin bone at the temple.

I've thought about this post all night...

IMHO, this type of discussion (the part that refers to killing/injuring) has no place in a forum such as this (target sport) - but the part about how do you help a child such as this through our sport is an honourable thing.

The BIG issue in gun-based violence is the mental health of the perpetrator. This is the "elephant in the room" when people discuss the gun violence issue - it is not just access to firearms.

Based on the stated mental state of the child in question, I would have no hesitation in reporting the whole matter to the child's mental health carer (psychologist/psychiatrist, etc) and seek a statement in writing that the child's state of mind would permit him to have access to firearms and under what conditions. Other than that, I would report the situation to some legal authority and I would have nothing more to do with the boy.

If it were me and I did nothing and he used a firearm to commit a crime, I would never be able to live with myself.

PS: I taught in high schools for over 40 years and ran a truancy program. From what you have said about this kid, my alarm bells are ringing very loudly.

conradin wrote:

I cannot tell my friend that her kid will be in my opinion a danger to the society in the future, it is not my right. I actually did raise the issue once but the mom totally ignored and dismissed my concerns. But at least I want her to understand the situation, and also I do not want to be responsible for any future disaster. If I do not teach the kid any pistol, there is one less chance of him using it.

Sir, it may not be your right, but I believe it is your duty. Ask yourself how you will feel in the future if you do not give him the training, but his mother gets it for him elsewhere, because you did not tell her, and he does seriously injure or kill someone.

This is similar to situations where we hear kids talking about suicide. As instructors and coaches we cannot ignore it, our duty to ourselves and others is not just the firearms specific training, but life skills training.

Offer to follow up with training when, if, he you receive a written go-ahead from the boys mental health counselor.

I would think an air pistol could easily be lethal, to the eye, ear or any artery.

I would suggest taking any steps needed to ensure this kid can never buy a firearm.

I'd concur with James, but there doesn't seem much leeway either under the law or involving the mental health system to completely control/monitor the habits of individuals, especially minors. Interfering could easily backfire, leaving the concerned citizen accused of some crime or other against a child. And until he's committed an actual crime it seems the police have their hands tied. Someone from a family services office might check in now and then under certain conditions but how much weight would that carry?

Seems to me that in the context of how things are set up now, the best course would be to approach the situation on as friendly terms as possible and attempt to involve the kid in a positive way. Educate and inspire him to become adept at the safe handling of his BB or pellet gun and even compete, putting him in a healthier environment where the more positive attitudes of fellow shooters might rub off. Contribute what you can to more positively socializing the guy. And that's a lot to take on! I'm not suggesting working with a troubled kid is an easy thing to get involved with.

When I was in grade 9, I was asked by my woodworking teacher to volunteer at the local boy's club, as they had a lathe but no one capable of teaching the required skills. There were a number of very troubled kids my age and older hanging out there, playing ping-pong or watching TV and generally waiting to get into trouble. There was a lot of talk about stealing stuff, ripping off bikes, knives, whatever. I went in one day after school and within 10 minutes made a halfway decent wine glass out of a pine branch. At least half a dozen were inspired and wanted to know how the hell that could happen so easily. Two of these were guys who had bullied me in elementary school. I told them I'd only had maybe 20 hours on the lathe, but had paid close attention to what my shop teacher showed us, observed all the safety rules, and was able to make furniture to a fairly high standard already. By the time I moved on a few months later (conflicting schedules with my cross-country running sessions on the school team) there were three of these guys showing significant skill on the lathe and wanting to register for woodworking the next year in school. My few hours teaching them how, peer counselling you could call it, paid off, at least so it seemed.

Stuff like that might just make a crucial difference. I guess my point is that trying to show a better way isn't all that hard. Use what skills you have, offer a little time, and if you fail, hey, at least you tried. Letting the kid go on his own with an obviously weak situation around him in terms of parenting, well, that just might haunt you in later years if you don't take some initiative. Some say you can't fail if you don't try. I'd suggest you'll have failed already if you don't try, and if the outcome isn't the best, well, that happens, but at least someone gave it a shot.

It would not matter if it was an air pistol, airsoft, (and for me even paintball).
Treat any air rifle and air pistol as if you have the most lethal gun you can think of in your (or in their hands), and NEVER point one at anything you would not want to destroy. Not even once, and certainly not for play.
It's not a toy, and should not be considered play.

I'd have a long talk with your program administrator, his parents, and yes, even the law enforcement authorities in your area.

Informing him about the "true danger" is not a very smart thing ... he has already demonstrated a lack of caring of society. This kid's a time bomb waiting to go off.

It is easy for me to say because I have no emotional attachment to the people involved, but I think that it is wrong to get people involved in air gun shooting or any other kind of shooting activities when their emotional or mental state indicates that they have a serious problem. You also indicate that the youth's guardians are in denial. I would walk away, but before doing so, make certain that all authorities are notified.

Conradin,

I think the responsible thing for you to do is to share what you've shared with TT about this family with this boy's school, local police department and Department of Child Services. If his mom is "proud" of his bottle rocket manufacturing skills, she's just as, if not more, dangerous the he is.
Given recent events concerning a troubled, intelligent youth and his misguided mother with 4 bullets in her head, I must question why you would even need to pose this question.

There are 'troubled kids' who need a nudge in the right direction, and some kids who are going to be trouble whatever help you try to give them.

This one sounds like the latter, and if the mother is half/all the problem this is going nowhere good. I've seen enough kids who have never had a second of discipline in their lives.

I would put something on the record with local law enforcement, if only to cover yourself.

I don't want to sound brutal or unpolite, but your asking the wrong question. You don't point a gun at something you do not want to shoot. 1st lesson. If the candidate shooter is, for any reason, not able to understand or to comply with that rule, do not trust him/her with a gun. When my kids were young they received water pistols, with the firm remark not to shoot at each other. They shot at paper figures that tumbled when hit. And they had fun. They have never touched my firearms, although these were not locked away. Never had any problems. So my advice, if I may, be careful.
Regards,
Guy

Yes, you can kill with an air pistol. PCP and CO2 guns have enough force to penetrate a human skull.

Frankly, the way you describe the kid, he sounds like the textbook example of a potential mass shooter. Smart, but no social skills, and poor impulse control. Sounds like he's got his parents fooled too. I'd stay *FAR* away. Wouldn't want to enable him, nor be part of the body count.