Folks, can anyone please educate me about the Vihtavuori powder? I currently load 3.7g Bullseye for the 200g LSWC. Not sure if this affects accuracy in any way, but I do see some unburned powder when I clean the gun after a day of shooting. How is BE compared to N310? Are there any clear advantages or disadvantages?
Many thanks!
Vihtavuori vs Bullseye for 200g LSWC?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
#1 Bullseye is real dirty powder to shoot and clean. It is a fast powder that what makes it a good handgun powder. VV N310 is however a faster powder and extremely clean burning. I used it on a Pardini HP and though cleaning the Pardini semi auto's is a cinch and fast, I do not have to clean as often as I do cleaning my 1911 after a match or two. Your hands look like you have been an auto mechanic all your life. I also find that VV N310 measures more easily as the powder grains themselves look literally as if they were all were poured from a mould. Each and every powder grain looks as if they were machined and perfect twins to each other. Getting presses to measure VV N310 is difficult when you use only small amounts for the .32L. It usually requires the small or Dillon micro bar and a micrometer adjusting system added to get the steady drop of 1.2-1.3 grains of powder for reloading the .32 L required by the Pardini HP series. Just my thoughts and personal experience....."Doc"
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sobakavitch
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V-310 is clean and accurate and expensive costing twice what bullseye costs, it is also temperature sensitive when it gets under 50 degrees you will need to load it a little hotter it also gets more powerful in very hot temps. Bullseye stays close to the same in most temps and if you use a Winchester primer and a good .469 crimp, your powder will burn better and leave less residue. I moved away from v-310 because of the above and now shoot bullseye all the time
I've loaded 3.8g of VV N310 under a LaserCast 200gSWC for years.
I use a shoulder seater stem in a 550 so theres about 1/32" shoulder protrusion above the case.
It ransom rested tight groups, smaller than the 10 ring at 50 yds in two different wad guns.
N310 is very clean burning and it seems I get less leading than with bullseye or 231.
I don't shoot in temps colder than 50 degrees so if there is a cold temperature issue it's not a concern for me.
I gladly pay the extra cost for VV powder for the clean burning characteristic.
I use a shoulder seater stem in a 550 so theres about 1/32" shoulder protrusion above the case.
It ransom rested tight groups, smaller than the 10 ring at 50 yds in two different wad guns.
N310 is very clean burning and it seems I get less leading than with bullseye or 231.
I don't shoot in temps colder than 50 degrees so if there is a cold temperature issue it's not a concern for me.
I gladly pay the extra cost for VV powder for the clean burning characteristic.
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Trooperjake
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sobakavitch,
I have a Pardini GT 45 6" also.
I am not set on a 50 yards load, but at 25, I use the quality 160 gr. with bullseye 3.8 gr.
I just went through 2,000 and ordered 2,000 more.
I have no problems with the gun digesting them, and it is extremely accurate if I do my job. On seating, the Pardini likes them with the SWC edge just barely out of the case, maybe why it likes the jacket better in yours.
I do get slight leading after 200-300 firing. Less than I got in my 1911.
I have a Pardini GT 45 6" also.
I am not set on a 50 yards load, but at 25, I use the quality 160 gr. with bullseye 3.8 gr.
I just went through 2,000 and ordered 2,000 more.
I have no problems with the gun digesting them, and it is extremely accurate if I do my job. On seating, the Pardini likes them with the SWC edge just barely out of the case, maybe why it likes the jacket better in yours.
I do get slight leading after 200-300 firing. Less than I got in my 1911.
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sobakavitch
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I guess what it comes down to for me is the availability of the product. You can get Bullseye just about any where and good groups. I use it in my gun and in my shop for testing new 1911's and barrels. Dirty? That is the least of my concerns since I will be cleaning the gun after a 2700 or a 900 for that matter. The difference in accuracy has never materialized in testing for me when I loads rounds with N310 or N320. I also fund the BE to drop fine for .38 and .32 with my micro bar. Just MHO
For what it worth'
I got this from Guns and Ammo magazine: The complete book of the 1911. One of the articals in the book is called favorite 1911 handloads written by Patrick Sweeney. This is the quote from the aritical as it is written: Lets start out with the best load: Oregon Trails 200-grain lead semiwadcutter over 4.5 grains of Viht N-310 . Not listed in the Vihtavuori loading manual, the 310 load came to me from Bill Wilson. He uses it to accuracy test his guns before they leave the factory. The CQB he sent me shot five rounds into one ragged hole at 15 yards at the factory. In my Caspian Race-Ready single stack, that load regularly shoots less than an inch at 25 yards from the Ransom Rest.
I got this from Guns and Ammo magazine: The complete book of the 1911. One of the articals in the book is called favorite 1911 handloads written by Patrick Sweeney. This is the quote from the aritical as it is written: Lets start out with the best load: Oregon Trails 200-grain lead semiwadcutter over 4.5 grains of Viht N-310 . Not listed in the Vihtavuori loading manual, the 310 load came to me from Bill Wilson. He uses it to accuracy test his guns before they leave the factory. The CQB he sent me shot five rounds into one ragged hole at 15 yards at the factory. In my Caspian Race-Ready single stack, that load regularly shoots less than an inch at 25 yards from the Ransom Rest.
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Isabel1130
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- Location: Wyoming
There are tradeoffs with everything. I have used Clays, and Titegroup mostly, but recently switched to Bullseye for my indoor/short line loads. I have been extremely happy.
Yes, it is a little dirty but I have had zero alabis, the last two matches with it, and 3.5 of Bullseye provides an even lighter and more consistant felt recoil, than 3.7 of Clays.
Clays meters poorly, and is very sensitive to cold. When I got my guns out at the range last weekend, they were very cold. The first round in 22 failed to eject, but everything was fine after that.
I was apprehensive about center fire because my gun was cold to the touch, and Clays has caused problems in the past. There was not a single issue with the Bullseye. No light loads, no heavy ones, and perfect functioning. It is amazing how much better you shoot when you can stop worrying about your ammo. :-)
I do love the VVN340 for 9mm rounds, but I have heard the N310 suffers from most of the same drawbacks as Clays.
Yes, it is a little dirty but I have had zero alabis, the last two matches with it, and 3.5 of Bullseye provides an even lighter and more consistant felt recoil, than 3.7 of Clays.
Clays meters poorly, and is very sensitive to cold. When I got my guns out at the range last weekend, they were very cold. The first round in 22 failed to eject, but everything was fine after that.
I was apprehensive about center fire because my gun was cold to the touch, and Clays has caused problems in the past. There was not a single issue with the Bullseye. No light loads, no heavy ones, and perfect functioning. It is amazing how much better you shoot when you can stop worrying about your ammo. :-)
I do love the VVN340 for 9mm rounds, but I have heard the N310 suffers from most of the same drawbacks as Clays.
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sobakavitch
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Isabel1130
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Just to answer a few of your questions.
Some point around about 45 degrees is where I start having issues with cold. Also, the Clays seemed very "hot" with lots of kick at Canton when it was 110 last summer. I agree with you that if you are in the south, you probably have little to worry about as far as functioning, but in Colorado where I shoot most my matches, we often see a 40 degree swing in temperature between the beginning of the match, and the end of it.
At the 50 yard line, I am using Titegroup, which I think is also a very good powder, it just doesnt have quite the feel at the 25 yard line that I am looking for, and I really think Bullseye would work just as well. (Dave Salyer tells me it will.)
I agree with you that the metering problems with Clays can be tweeked, and if it was the best powder in all other respects, it would not be a deal breaker. One of the things the helps is keeping the powder drop full, and using a small powder bar rather than the extra small.
I also agree, that dirty is a relative term as far as powder goes, but I am not seeing much difference there between Bullseye and Clays. I havent seen flakes of unburned powder with either load, so, I suspect that it is a wash there.
It was a master class shooter in Colorado, who told me VVN310 was temperature sensitive, and he said he went back to using Bullseye.
Some point around about 45 degrees is where I start having issues with cold. Also, the Clays seemed very "hot" with lots of kick at Canton when it was 110 last summer. I agree with you that if you are in the south, you probably have little to worry about as far as functioning, but in Colorado where I shoot most my matches, we often see a 40 degree swing in temperature between the beginning of the match, and the end of it.
At the 50 yard line, I am using Titegroup, which I think is also a very good powder, it just doesnt have quite the feel at the 25 yard line that I am looking for, and I really think Bullseye would work just as well. (Dave Salyer tells me it will.)
I agree with you that the metering problems with Clays can be tweeked, and if it was the best powder in all other respects, it would not be a deal breaker. One of the things the helps is keeping the powder drop full, and using a small powder bar rather than the extra small.
I also agree, that dirty is a relative term as far as powder goes, but I am not seeing much difference there between Bullseye and Clays. I havent seen flakes of unburned powder with either load, so, I suspect that it is a wash there.
It was a master class shooter in Colorado, who told me VVN310 was temperature sensitive, and he said he went back to using Bullseye.
Bullseye powder
The energetic ingredients used in gun powder are nitrocellulose (NC) and nitroglycerin (NG). Single based powders use only NC. Double based powders use NC and NG in varying percentages. Clays is very nearly a single base powder with a very small percentage of NG. This lack of NG helps it burn cleanly but it is also very temp sensitive. As the temp goes up, so does the pressure and velocity. As the temp goes down, the opposite occurs. The amount of change is not necessarily linear...it might be different from 20 to 30 degrees than from 70 to 80 degrees. On the other hand, Bullseye is definitely a double base powder with a NG percentage of nominally 40%. This percentage of NG helps it to be more temp stable, but it also contributes to the residue and smoke. Therein lies the tradeoff. To make it a cleaner burning powder, the NG content would have to be changed. If the characteristics of the powder are altered, then the burn rate changes and it can no longer be called Bullseye. As for cleanliness, the higher the pressure, the more efficient (cleaner) the burn. This is why Bullseye, for instance, is cleaner in a 9mm (30 to 35,000 psi) than it is in a 45 auto (less than 20,000 psi for a target load). Couple a low pressure load with a greasy lead bullet, and you have the potential for more residue. I have been using Bullseye for the last 30+ years and have found it to make loads that are at least as accurate as my guns and have never paid any attention to the residue. I do give my 1911 a quick clean between CF and 45, but I would imagine that most everyone does this anyway. Bullseye is also an American made powder and has been for the last 100+ years. Being a small flake powder, it meters very well in all volumetric measures. Since it has never failed to perform consistently, I have never felt the need to change.
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sobakavitch
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reloading the .45
I've been reloading for quite sometime and I realized something a long time ago. I get kidded alot for my simplistic approach, but I never try to reinvent the wheel. .45's need to be pushed to at least 750fps to be accurate. I don't like swaged bullets because they are too soft and start to lead fairly rapidly. If you use the .45 in centerfire, by the time u get to .45 stage, your longline scores will suffer. My load for the longline is 4.6 Bullseye with a Rem 185g match head and 4.1g of Bullseye and a 200gr #68 bullet for the shortline. The bueaty is, I don't need to make any elevation corrections. Both loads dead on for their distances. I understand the new load is 185 Noslers wth VitaVouri powder but I like to stick to what I know.
ooopps sorry
200 gr hardcast bullet, 4.1 BE for the shortline....sorry bout that