Shrinking hold in prone

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:15 am

I have a very high L-value when using my SCATT device. The lowest I've been is around 57 and the highest gets just above 100. My average is often just above 80.

I see that pulse is a big contributing factor for the big movement for me. I can't feel were the pulse transmitts to the rifle so I can't point at some specific area.

What approach should I use to shrink my hold in prone?

Those of you that have succeded in this what have you done?

I have a very slender build, I'm only 66kg and 183cm tall. Could this affect the transmitting of pulse to the rifle negatively?

My resting heart rate is between 50 and 60 bpm and my blood pressure is around 130/70.

BM · Post by BM » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:41 pm

Don't focus on the tracelenght alone. This is a calculated movement which is highly affected by light conditions and calibration of the sensor in the factory. With different sensors on same scatt and light I had a difference in length of 85 to 25. Furthermore there is a major difference in RS232 vs USB type scatt.

Primary objective of scatt is to reduce movement. Try to achieve this by adjusting your gear; low/high position sling on arm, increase/decrease slingpressure, seams in fabric at wrong locations. Search and find.

Without data it's hard to tell someone were improvement can be made.

dlinden · Post by **dlinden** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:12 pm

BM -

Does the USB version give higher or lower readings on Length value?

Dennis L

BM · Post by BM » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Higher. I used RS232 and USB on same afternoon and with USB I couldn't get under 80 and with rs232 I get values of 30.
We checked by clamping the rifle and shoot ten shots; the only movement you measure is caused by light conditions, surface reflections and calibration of the sensor. This resulted in 5 for rs232 and 20 for usb.
We also have the impression that movement is enlarged with usb. It can't be the software either because the same laptop and same scatt-version was used.

I like the ease of setup of the usb but the unreliability makes training useless.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:51 am

Okay, I will test to secure the rifle with sandbags or something like that and see how the trace looks like.

I can see movement in the sights so I think that my hold needs very much improvement.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:43 am

BM wrote:Higher. I used RS232 and USB on same afternoon and with USB I couldn't get under 80 and with rs232 I get values of 30.
We checked by clamping the rifle and shoot ten shots; the only movement you measure is caused by light conditions, surface reflections and calibration of the sensor. This resulted in 5 for rs232 and 20 for usb.
We also have the impression that movement is enlarged with usb. It can't be the software either because the same laptop and same scatt-version was used.

I like the ease of setup of the usb but the unreliability makes training useless.

I'll have to disagree as we use a mixture of serial and USB scatts at our squad sessions, and results are almost identical. Which to be honest is what I'd expect. I suspect you have different settings and/or different versions of the scatt solution software running on them both. One very critical factor is f-coefficient, if it's not identical then results will be very different.

Rob.

Rob.

BM · Post by BM » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:52 am

And I disagree with you (no hard feelings!).
We tested this with several sensors as we have 3 rs232 and 2 usb and I use a standard f-coefficient for all sessions (60). I train with scatt on five different locations and all usb scatts generate other results were the rs232 are more or less similar.
I can only tell from my personal experiences.

F-coefficient is only influencing shotdispersion, not tracelength.

gstarik · Post by **gstarik** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:22 pm

I agree with BM. Scatt USB will always have a higher L value then the serial one. The people from Scatt say it should be higher about 30%.
A good hold in prone should have L values under 40.(USB)
The pulse in prone can come from 3 different reasons:
1:Wrong placement of the sling on the upper arm.try to change it up or down,using the Scatt to determine the right place.
2:bounce from the chest touching the ground. The chest than should be higher,so the part of the chest close to the hurt will not touch the ground.
3:cheek piece doesn't fit,so the neck muscles are not relaxed and the head is nor stable. Correct the cheek piece,so your eye will be in the center of the sight without muscular effort.
Guy.

dlinden · Post by **dlinden** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:04 pm

Thanks BM and Guy -

I find this discussion most interesting. I have researched every article and forum topic I could find about SCATT and have never seen this topic previously. When I read about people getting traces in the 20's consistently for 50M, I couldn't believe it. I have tried countless adjustments and could not get readings less than 30. With a recent new coat, I can hold in 30's after changing sling position and button placement. I would rather not waste time trying to get to a level that is really not achievable and spend time on other aspects of training.

Dennis L

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:59 am

How much does a perfect fitting jacket help in prone, I'm thinking about how it affects hold and also the consitency of the position during say a 60 shot match.

My jacket doesn't fit me so it's easy to get the left sleeve sliding down the left arm and I don't feel that I get any support across the shoulders. I'm pretty convinced that if I should get anywhere in prone a new jacket is pretty important.

Can you describe how big difference it was when changing from a bad fitting jacket to one with perfect fit?

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:29 pm

Here's two example files when I have had training sessions with the SCATT. The second one is how it looks like for the most of the time and the first is when it did go really well.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:09 pm

gstarik wrote:I agree with BM. Scatt USB will always have a higher L value then the serial one. The people from Scatt say it should be higher about 30%.
A good hold in prone should have L values under 40.(USB)
<snip>
Guy.

Thanks Guy, but that doesn't account for the difference mentioned by the above poster of over 200% - and perhaps if as you say it really is about 30% then perhaps we haven't spotted it. I will however do some checking on our scatts.

Rob.

jkuna · Post by **jkuna** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:52 am

I took the advice from gstarik how to reduce the L value. I managed to reduce it from over 50 to below 40.
Thanks Guy

dontshootcritters · Post by **dontshootcritters** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:27 am

Hi Guys.
Im not sure if its any help or not but if all else fails here to sort an answer try ringing SCATT and speaking to Dmitry.His English is very good and a most helpful man indeed.

GaryD · Post by **GaryD** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:24 am

On the question of pulse, what are the best settings or recomendations that you guys use on Scatt to show up the pulse trace.

I am sure that I have asked a similar question on the forum before but I can't seem to find it, so I apologise if I have.

KennyB · Post by **KennyB** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:07 pm

What I do is set the control time to five seconds and look at the speed graph. My pulse shows up quite clearly most of the time.

Ken.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:03 am

Yesterday I did a test putting my rifle on sandbags and pointing it to the target. The L-value was between 40,x-41. I put a big cardoard box at half the distance to the target but that just changed the point of impact.

I must do some more testing today with and without any lights in the rooms.

tenring · Post by **tenring** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:38 am

I have a light on a stand that I can point at the target. It is a floresent Reveal light bulb. It seems to like being above the target rather than beside. Approx. 4ft provided the best results for me.

tenring

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:35 am

I did the test again with even better support and testing with the lights I normally use and total darkness.

The L-value is around 20 and it doesn't matter if I got the lights on or not.

GaryD · Post by **GaryD** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:45 pm

KennyB wrote:What I do is set the control time to five seconds and look at the speed graph. My pulse shows up quite clearly most of the time.

Ken.

Thanks Ken, I will give that setting a try when I start back on Monday.
Gary