TargetTalk

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-int ... e-programs

The link above is a petition to the ISSF to consider the impact its rule changes will have on junior clubs. Please consider signing if you agree. I've cross-posted in both the Rifle and the Youth Program forums to maximize exposure.

What Clothing rule change is being petitioned? In what way will it affect clubs? I'm not seeing any changes in the new ISSF rules that would lend to the need to purchase new pants or jacket....

From the Approved ISSF Rules Summary

* Pants will require the removal of the seat pad. Most pants I've seen this is a fairly simple, get a stitch ripper and just take it off.

* Boot/shoe soles have to follow the curve of the boot/shoe and no flat spots are allowed on the sole edge. Most boots I've seen, just put it on the belt sander you've been using to make sure the rifle does not touch the chest.

* Jacket Side Panel not allowed to have any seam under the rifle support arm. This is the one that will cause many jackets to be tossed. Especially the custom/semi-custom and womens jackets. There are seams on the Side panels to control the fit of the jacket (especially women with the multiple curves in the bust and waist areas)

CMP is delaying the enforcement of these until Jan 2014. Note that CMP understood the impact of the Jacket Panel rule and did not include it in the most recent release of the 2013-2014 rules.

I've heard (but not confirmed) that USAS is considering the delay of the enforcement as well. They have delayed for the junior level at the International JO's as we will be using the 2011 version of the rules for the 2013 JOSC.

I believe there is an ISSF meeting in Munich this week that is further refining the rules ... I'm really hoping that the Jacket Side Panel rule is tossed.

As jhmartin has explained, the biggest issue here is going to be what they really mean when discussing or outlawing seams under the support arm in standing.

There have been a few folks who have noted this with horror and stated that this will be the end of the junior programs as the switch will cost too much to get into compliance.

Calm down and lets not toss out all the old jackets just yet.

The first thing that is happening here as been noted, USAS and CMP are delaying full adoption/enforcement of this rule.

Now the other thing, when I was a junior back in the 1970s there were certainly cases where a junior did not have equipment that was all ISU (the name of the ISSF in those days) legal. For the average junior it was fine to note the discrepancy, look the other way. and let them shoot.

Yeah the better juniors doing things like going to Phoenix (the equivalent of Ft. Benning today) had to be all in spec but for the local tournaments the adults had the good sense to make some adjustments, shut up and keep shooting. In some cases I think we need to get back to that concept.

'Dude

Not just junior programmes at risk, most nations run their domestic events to ISSF at least in air and 50 mt .22rf events, if this change happens it will mean that many club shooters around the world will not compete in their own national events, may retire, or will drop back into non ISSF events and cause a bigger rift between domestic and ISSF a gap which had been narrowing for years.
The clothing changes are pointless and stupid as are the changes to rifle chest rests on ally stocks, they just make the shape the same as a wooden stock so is the next move to ban wooden stocks? The new butt weight rule is also pointless and stupid apart from being written very badly by an idiot who has swallowed a dictionary!
Another silly and pointless rule change is not what our sport and the idusties that support it needs expecialy when it is at risk from legislation and financial insecurity.
The German federation has said it will not run to these rules next year, as have the British NSRA, and Canada, and now the US, hopefully the stupid old men at the ISSF will realise they are out on a limb and climb back.
Robin

I forgot to add that the boot change is for the sole to be the same shape as the upper, there is no mention of no flat allowed, for most of us with out belt sanders it will mean finding an old fashion shoe repairer (rare now!) to get the sole trimmed, which should be possible in most cases, but its a hassle and will make no difference in the standing position, just awkward in the kneeling position, as if its not awkward enough any way as a position!
And the manufacturers will circumvent it at their next redesign by making the toe upper square, some have it square now so they will have an advantage as soon as this rule is brought in.
The boot rule has been basicaly constant since the ISU (pre UIT and ISSF) days meaning there is a good stock of cheap second hand boots for clubs to buy.
We do not need any rule changes, for our sport to develop we need stability.
Robin

RobinC as guest wrote:Not just junior programmes at risk, most nations run their domestic events to ISSF at least in air and 50 mt .22rf events <snip>
Robin

Robin,
I suspect it's more the case that most nations currently choose to run their national competitions to ISSF rules. They can decide not to if they wish. And depending on what you call our national .22 rifle event, it isnt run to ISSF rules. Most domestic comps don't run under ISSF rules either in the UK, most are NSRA rules.

Rob.

RobinC wrote:I forgot to add that the boot change is for the sole to be the same shape as the upper, there is no mention of no flat allowed, for most of us with out belt sanders it will mean finding an old fashion shoe repairer (rare now!) to get the sole trimmed, which should be possible in most cases, but its a hassle and will make no difference in the standing position, just awkward in the kneeling position, as if its not awkward enough any way as a position!

Robin ... from the Summary document: (my bolding)

􀁸 Shoe Sole Contour. The sole must follow the external curvature of the shoe and may not extend more than 5.0 mm beyond the external dimensions of the shoe at any point. Toe extensions or heels that are cut square or flat are not permitted.

justadude wrote:Now the other thing, when I was a junior back in the 1970s there were certainly cases where a junior did not have equipment that was all ISU (the name of the ISSF in those days) legal. For the average junior it was fine to note the discrepancy, look the other way. and let them shoot.

Yeah the better juniors doing things like going to Phoenix (the equivalent of Ft. Benning today) had to be all in spec but for the local tournaments the adults had the good sense to make some adjustments, shut up and keep shooting. In some cases I think we need to get back to that concept.

'Dude

Dude ... for the most part we do that now .... in local CMP 3-P events we have been allowed to let shooters with NRA jackets shoot in cup matches. No can do in the national matches.

My goal for my serious shooters is to get them to Colo Springs in April. Luckily, this year they have specified that we will run USAS 2011 rules.

Have not personally heard what they will do at the National Matches ... Spring Airgun, Selections or National Champs this year.

Just chatted with Pete at USAS -- Winter Airgun will follow 2011 rules

jhmartin wrote:

RobinC wrote:I forgot to add that the boot change is for the sole to be the same shape as the upper, there is no mention of no flat allowed, for most of us with out belt sanders it will mean finding an old fashion shoe repairer (rare now!) to get the sole trimmed, which should be possible in most cases, but its a hassle and will make no difference in the standing position, just awkward in the kneeling position, as if its not awkward enough any way as a position!

Robin ... from the Summary document: (my bolding)

&#56256;&#56440; Shoe Sole Contour. The sole must follow the external curvature of the shoe and may not extend more than 5.0 mm beyond the external dimensions of the shoe at any point. Toe extensions or heels that are cut square or flat are not permitted.

Sorry I should have read it again, but I interpret that as the sole MUST follow the contour of the shoe, if the contour is square (as are some new boots) so will be the sole, it states EXTENSIONS that are cut square are not permitted, a sole following the shape of the shoe is not an extension, but that is just my interpretationand I may well be wrong,
Rob I agree most UK domestics are run to NSRA rules but the air and 50 mt championships, NSRA and ESSU are run to ISSF.
Robin

justadude wrote:As jhmartin has explained, the biggest issue here is going to be what they really mean when discussing or outlawing seams under the support arm in standing.

As it was explained to me by an ISSF judge - there are a few (mainly female) jackets which have the seam at exactly the right height so that when the standing position is assumed, a tuck occurs on the side producing a small ledge which the shooter can rest their elbow on.
Higher or lower seams are not a problem as they don't give support to the elbow.

Are the ISSF wrong to try and do something about this particular (perceived) issue?

I'm quite sure that they are aware of the consequences of making a large number of existing jackets non-compliant.
I think that with the summary of proposed changes should have been explanations as to why the changes were being considered. That would have saved a lot of aggravation all round...

Ken.

KennyB wrote:

justadude wrote:As jhmartin has explained, the biggest issue here is going to be what they really mean when discussing or outlawing seams under the support arm in standing.

As it was explained to me by an ISSF judge - there are a few (mainly female) jackets which have the seam at exactly the right height so that when the standing position is assumed, a tuck occurs on the side producing a small ledge which the shooter can rest their elbow on.
Higher or lower seams are not a problem as they don't give support to the elbow.

Are the ISSF wrong to try and do something about this particular (perceived) issue?

I'm quite sure that they are aware of the consequences of making a large number of existing jackets non-compliant.
I think that with the summary of proposed changes should have been explanations as to why the changes were being considered. That would have saved a lot of aggravation all round...

Ken.

Very good post.
You hit the nail on the head especially with the last part. The ISSF should have given reasons for these changes. Simple really they would have saved themselves so much work.
It sounds like they only need to look at a few jackets not all.

Yes I too have heard its the horizontal seam under the left arm that they are talking about and that it is being used as a ledge to sit the elbow on. Hopefully if this is the case they will more adequately spell that out in the final rules.

RobinC wrote: Sorry I should have read it again, but I interpret that as the sole MUST follow the contour of the shoe, if the contour is square (as are some new boots) so will be the sole, it states EXTENSIONS that are cut square are not permitted, a sole following the shape of the shoe is not an extension, but that is just my interpretationand I may well be wrong,
Rob I agree most UK domestics are run to NSRA rules but the air and 50 mt championships, NSRA and ESSU are run to ISSF.
Robin

OK Robin (or anyone else) .... your opinion here. I think I have to (eventually) grind the sole to a curve even though the sole follows the "contour".

I think you'll have to wait. I'm sure there will be clarification on these poorly worded rule changes

Richard H wrote:I think you'll have to wait. I'm sure there will be clarification on these poorly worded rule changes

Snicker ..... Chicken

Yes you could wait but me I'm a gambling man I'd just hack those square edges off, but that's me I'm a gambling man Crusier. ;) (taken from Stripes)

I knew I could provoke a response.
I agree, if they don't change the wording, I'll have to round that off.

No rush

I had a reply from Rajmond Debevec on the Jacket issue which he gave permission for me to post on websites.

"About your question of the seam on the left part of the jacket:
I was a member of the the ad hoc clothing committee whithin the last two years and this matter was never discussed and never exposed as a problem. I don't know who's proposal it was but if it stays in a form as it is written now it will be a real catastrophy for all the shooters world wide. I wrote to Hirvi about the problem as he was also a member of that ad hoc committee and he replied that he had sent a letter to ISSF headquarters with a request for explanation.
I talked to Willi Grill during the 300 m EC in Zagreb 2 weeks ago as I suspect he is the author of this stupidity.
He explained that the next year is a transitional period and they will inspect what jackets have a seam giving a support for the left elbow and only that jacket would be disqualified. He mentioned Asian jackets only.
So I also wait on some official reply or post of the AC.
You can use everthing from my reply and quote me to post at forums.
Best regards
Rajmond"

So , there you have it, its a clothing rule added with out the knowledge of the people placed on a committee to look at clothing issues, in response to a problem that does not exist! And the Athletes committee (AC) had no prior knowledge of it, Hirvi is the chairman of the AC, and Rajmond has just resigned from that committee in protest.
Not only that but it will be enforced by the opinion of equipment control to some jackets, but not all!
It has been done with no thought for female shooters, for whom it is near enough impossible to get a correctly fitting jacket with out a seam at the waist. I have looked at the jackets of three lady shooters, my wifes Monard, a Kurt Thune and a Kusterman, all have seams around the area where the elbow rests, none have any advantage at all. Perhaps the next rule change from these stupid old men will ban women from shooting the standing position as they clearly have an advantage by having hips that they can rest an elbow on!
Robin

Unfortunately this only confirms what many have felt... that this is not a "committee" but a group that is led by an unfortunate few.

I wish more of those fortunate enough to have some common sense would stay on and get rid of the few who are causing the issues.