Unique Des 69 for BE

Hamdenman · Post by **Hamdenman** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:46 pm

After shooting several BE 900 .22 matches with my s&w 41, I was wondering if moving up to an nice condition DES 69 that I have sitting in the safe would be an improvement. I was also thinking of trying to locate a Hammerli 208s. How do these compare? I have ordered a red dot
mount from BME for the DES 69 as the eyes are not what they once were.
Just a random thought.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:55 pm

It is not the gun. However, there are some guns that a red dot looks much more stable on. This can be a function of gun balance, and your wrist and arm strength. Some experimentation with different guns, with different weights and points of balance, may help you figure out what is best for you. I have heard that the Model 41 is very similar to a Hammerli 208. I have never shot either the Unique or the Model 41.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:02 pm

Hamdenman;

My question is, an improvement to what ?
Fit and finish, grip feel, stability, trigger or score ?

I would just drag it out of that dark safe and give it a try.(let it see some daylight :)

Only you will know what it is that you are looking for.

If it does not work out then go back to the M41.

Clarence

Hamdenman · Post by **Hamdenman** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:05 pm

I guess what I'm really asking is how does the 69 compare to the 208. Does anyone have experience with both? My 41 has been a good loyal companion, but the lock time is a little slower than the 69, and the one 208 I've handled has been "breathed on" I think, but it seems even faster and smoother than the 69. I have not tried anyhing other tha
falling plate with the 69 and for that it does
fine.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:26 pm

Falling plates!!!----that's a waste of a good pistol.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Old saying on TT: You can't buy points.

Chris_D · Post by **Chris_D** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:08 am

At risk of a debate, I will say that nearly every bullseye shooter buys points. Very few shooters shot a stock, cheap gun in competition. Nearly every 1911 or other pistol is modified in some way or another to be competitive

If you added a red dot sight, you bought points. If you had a trigger job done, you bought points. If you changed the grips, you bought points. If you spent time developing a load for your gun, you bought points. If you are shooting a gun that cost more than a few hundred dollars, you bought points.

I will admit that the purchase of a more expensive gun or accessory doesn't assure you of higher scores, but having the right gun / ammo in your hand will allow you to shoot better. I can shoot Master scores with my model 41 and my Marvel conversion, I cannot shoot Master scores with my cheap, die cast GSG 22 cal. 1911. I cannot shoot master scores with iron sights, but I can with my red dots. I can shoot master scores with any grips on my model 41, but my hand cramps up with poorly designed grips.

A more specific example is the 1911 pistol. A stock, military issue 1911 isn't going to be up to par for shooting at, and winning the Nationals at Perry. Everyone I know in this sport uses a custom modified or a high-end "stock" 1911 for competition. Adjustable sights, red dots, 3 1/2 pound triggers, match barrels, "fit" bushings, etc. are all upgrades and they all cost money and for the most part, they all added "point potential" to the gun.

So, with that said, to the original poster. Try the guns you have and see what works for you. If your model 41 is as good as mine, you certainly can shoot master level scores with it if you shoot it correctly. Also, try other shooters guns at the range, find out what feels good in your hand. Don't just rely on holding the gun though, you have to shoot it to really get a feel for it. In the end, no matter how expensive the gun is, no matter how much money you spend on it, no matter how many accessories you attach to it, no matter how many gizmos you attach to your eye glasses, it all comes down to being able shoot the gun properly in order to achieve high scores.

Chris D

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:48 am

While there is a lot of truth to what Chris has said, it only works up to a point. I believe you can buy enough points to achieve expert/ low master scores with a 22, and possibly a center fire gun. The 3.5 pound trigger on the 45 seperates the men from the boys and the women from the girls.
Brian Zins can hand you his gun while he shoots yours, and beat you with it.
If you go to Perry you will notice that the expert class is huge. Many of those shooters in that class will be shooting low master scores with the 22. Then they will drop 50 points or more off their score in the 45 match. Why? Most of the high masters I know believe it is because their triggering skills are not master class, and the 3.5 lb trigger on the 45 and the recoil, expose errors in technique that the 2 pound trigger and low recoil of the 22 cover up. So, buy as many points as you can, but then realize you will have to earn the rest if you want to be a master class shooter.

Hamdenman · Post by **Hamdenman** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:47 am

Thanks for some very interesting points from everyone. I Reilly appreciate he time and thought that went into the answers. I do believe that the 41 is capable of holding the 10 ring if I do my part. I am hoping a change
of pace will either move me up or show me something I can do better. I have have a buddy that has a 69 as well, but we are the only 2 I know of. I will mount the red dot and see how it goes. I do think you have to get basics down first and then you can actually wring out the advantages
that certain guns innately possess. A Clark is going to be better than a Rock island just due to the attention given to it, but if you still anticipate every shot, the Clark will shoot just like the Rock island.

Best I've managed with 41 is a 854 w 31x. I will see how the Unique does and report back.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:36 am

My experiences with Unique 22s is they will shoot X-ring.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:51 pm

You will see a lot of the high master shooters shooting the Marvel or other conversion units on a 1911 frame and trigger. It is not because they believe the Marvel is a more accurate gun than a Model 41, a 208s, or an AW-93. It is because they are using one grip, one angle and one style of trigger. They have found that consistency, i.e. between all platforms, raises their scores the most. Remember two thirds of a bullseye match is sustained fire, and if you are losing most of your points there, the accuracy of the gun, is not your main issue.

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:23 am

Isabel,
dont want to sidetrack this tread this tread, I am bloody curious......intrigued by Conventional Pistol and the nuancies of the .45, so I ask :
Just how does recoil effect result in slow fire 45 shooting ? You wrote ...."the 3.5 lb trigger on the 45 and the recoil, expose errors in technique that the 2 pound trigger and low recoil of the 22 cover up"
Surely perhaps the long line is also an uncoverer of men and boys, girls and women ?
I dont know Bullseye enough, but am really interested.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:35 am

Other than in your mind, recoil has no effect on slow fire shooting. However, your minds anticipation of recoil can cause all sorts of problems, when you feel rushed to get back into your hold area.
In my opinion, most international shooters spend way too much time on the trigger. They do this is the misplaced belief that they have to pull it very slowly and carefully to avoid jerking the trigger. They don't. What they need to do is to make sure that their trigger finger is the only thing moving and it is going straight back.
The 3.5 pound trigger, just by the nature of the amount of force required to pull the trigger exposes small flaws in your triggering process, because you are more likely to move the gun.
In sustained fire if you don't pull the trigger quickly and smoothly, you either run out of time, or you have poor shots. Generally you would also be making these errors with the 22, but the lighter trigger and lower recoil cover these errors so many of your shots are still in the black, and a newer shooter will have dificulty determining on their own, what they are doing wrong.

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:23 am

Isabel,
Yes maybe too much time might be spent in pulling slow, to the detriment of whats really needed...finger straight back.

Reminds me if trigger aftertravel adjustment has all that much an overall effect.
I never got definitive results; Have a Benelli 9mm, B76 that improved accuracy by reducing this adjustment to a minimum and yet a Pardini .45, PC45S does seem to show the same effect ( thus far).

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:27 am

...Sorry...I meant the Pardini 45 does NOT show the same accuracy improvment when reducing the amount of trigger after travel.

TargetTalk

Unique Des 69 for BE

Unique Des 69 for BE

DES 69

DES 69

Trigger

Pardini 45