Thinking about picking up a new rifle to shoot NRA smallbore prone matches next year and am wondering what the crowd here thinks would be the best rifle and why if money were no object.
G & E ?
Bleiker ?
Bleiker barrelled action in G & E stock
Walther ?
Anschutz ?
FWB ?
Gemini ?
Mec ?
Thanks in advance
Best NRA smallbore prone rifle ?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Best NRA smallbore prone rifle ?
Last edited by DavePat on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bugman1955
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:10 pm
best prone rifle
You left out the Gemini rifle, fine rifle.
Re: best prone rifle
You are right - I'll add to the list :-)bugman1955 wrote:You left out the Gemini rifle, fine rifle.
Folks probably need info.DavePat wrote:So which would you choose and why.
Age & height would be good starters.
Are you shooting now or getting back into it after (xx) years?
If you've been out a while, how fit are you?
Me ... I'm a JR coach & I worry about things breaking and like a rifle that you can easily get parts for. So I'll start off with Anschutz.
While all of the rifles mentioned are excellent rifles some of this comes down to how much money you want to spend.
For most of us, any of these rifles (or stocks) will shoot better than we can.
If you really enjoy spending money than a G&E or a Bleiker would be the way to go.
If you are in the US, Anschutz are plentiful, parts and accessories are readily available. Find one, buy it, love it and shoot it. OK, this is bit like buying a Buick, nice car, pretty well built but nothing special that will attract attention. This will get the job done for you.
If after a year or so you see some specific need that one of these other rifles or stocks will fill, then buy that, and sell what you have.
Good Luck,
'Dude
For most of us, any of these rifles (or stocks) will shoot better than we can.
If you really enjoy spending money than a G&E or a Bleiker would be the way to go.
If you are in the US, Anschutz are plentiful, parts and accessories are readily available. Find one, buy it, love it and shoot it. OK, this is bit like buying a Buick, nice car, pretty well built but nothing special that will attract attention. This will get the job done for you.
If after a year or so you see some specific need that one of these other rifles or stocks will fill, then buy that, and sell what you have.
Good Luck,
'Dude
20xx action in a G$E stock. Custom barrel if the stock barrel just if it just wasnt up to par which is easy on the 20xx action. G$E Return buttplate.. simple good and expensive. Other stocks to consider which comes to fit... I got lucky and found a G$E stock used. I just know the G$E stocks have a good flat bed for the flat 20xx action. Uptagrafft Tuner! If your short and have a hard time reaching the chamber. Go the Bleiker route. Can still get it in a G$E stock, but the Bleiker action looks nice too. Either way your looking at some $$$$. What I described above is still less money than a full Bleiker or full out G$E by about $3000 and get get parts for...
Really comes down to what you want, but really comes down to fit and then well what can you pay for.
Good Luck!
Let us know what you do!
Tenring
Really comes down to what you want, but really comes down to fit and then well what can you pay for.
Good Luck!
Let us know what you do!
Tenring
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Bill Burkert
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:08 pm
- Location: Fleetwood, PA
I am assuming that you want to be able to compete in prone at the highest level possible. Here is my two cents worth...
If that is your goal it is my opinion that you ought to invest in benchrest type equipment. Shooting prone is a little different than shooting 3P and demands the most accurate rifle which you can acquire.
I recommend a Hall action, which is a benchrest action, but works great for position shooting as well. Have Allan Hall send it to Mark Penrod for barreling and other details. Mark is a gunsmith in North Manchester, Indiana. Mark does rimfire benchrest work. He'll install a Benchmark, Lilja or whatever barrel you want. I can recommend Mark without reservation. He is great.
Mark built a rifle for me which I stocked using a set of pillars he made for me. Note that Masterclass Stocks or Carl Bernosky could stock it for you. I would use wood because, using a file, you can adjust the cheek piece to position your eye exactly.
My rifle is extremely accurate. It is capable of .500" and better accuracy at 100 yards. This is a ten shot group shot off a machine rest. I have the groups to prove it. The smallest is .404" center to center. I used Eley Black for this. Shooting at 100 yards is where most matches are won or lost.
For the rest of the rifle:
Use a Right Sight front sight with .5 lens and the Gehman 5 - 7 mm aperture.
A Bee Sting or Uptegrafft tuner bloop tube. Send this to Mark so that he can fit it for you. You'll need to know the barrel diameter prior to ordering this piece of equipment.
A Warner rear sight with a Anschutz adjustable rear aperture having a polarizing filter. The colors aren't necessary but get them if it makes you feel good.
A riser block in the rear and a scope rail by Bill Earnest, ESP products, Port Trevorton, PA completes the rifle.
For a scope try a Leupold FX3 in 25X or 30X with a 3/8" dot. I know great shooters who are using the Leupold Competition in 35X. I personally use an older Leupold 36X but the 1/8" dot is too small and I lose it on dark days.
The above will set you back a few bucks but then a new Anschutz 1913 or 2013 with a Precise stock will do likewise but won't be as accurate.
Oh, don't forget to test ammo. My Lilja barrel is chambered for Eley EPS but you may want to try Lapua. They have that test facility in Arizona. Send the completed rifle to their test facility and they'll set you up with a case or more of ammo. Ammo testing is a big pain in the butt so get enough ammo so that you don't have to get more next year!
If that is your goal it is my opinion that you ought to invest in benchrest type equipment. Shooting prone is a little different than shooting 3P and demands the most accurate rifle which you can acquire.
I recommend a Hall action, which is a benchrest action, but works great for position shooting as well. Have Allan Hall send it to Mark Penrod for barreling and other details. Mark is a gunsmith in North Manchester, Indiana. Mark does rimfire benchrest work. He'll install a Benchmark, Lilja or whatever barrel you want. I can recommend Mark without reservation. He is great.
Mark built a rifle for me which I stocked using a set of pillars he made for me. Note that Masterclass Stocks or Carl Bernosky could stock it for you. I would use wood because, using a file, you can adjust the cheek piece to position your eye exactly.
My rifle is extremely accurate. It is capable of .500" and better accuracy at 100 yards. This is a ten shot group shot off a machine rest. I have the groups to prove it. The smallest is .404" center to center. I used Eley Black for this. Shooting at 100 yards is where most matches are won or lost.
For the rest of the rifle:
Use a Right Sight front sight with .5 lens and the Gehman 5 - 7 mm aperture.
A Bee Sting or Uptegrafft tuner bloop tube. Send this to Mark so that he can fit it for you. You'll need to know the barrel diameter prior to ordering this piece of equipment.
A Warner rear sight with a Anschutz adjustable rear aperture having a polarizing filter. The colors aren't necessary but get them if it makes you feel good.
A riser block in the rear and a scope rail by Bill Earnest, ESP products, Port Trevorton, PA completes the rifle.
For a scope try a Leupold FX3 in 25X or 30X with a 3/8" dot. I know great shooters who are using the Leupold Competition in 35X. I personally use an older Leupold 36X but the 1/8" dot is too small and I lose it on dark days.
The above will set you back a few bucks but then a new Anschutz 1913 or 2013 with a Precise stock will do likewise but won't be as accurate.
Oh, don't forget to test ammo. My Lilja barrel is chambered for Eley EPS but you may want to try Lapua. They have that test facility in Arizona. Send the completed rifle to their test facility and they'll set you up with a case or more of ammo. Ammo testing is a big pain in the butt so get enough ammo so that you don't have to get more next year!
Buy the gun that fits you best and feels best, and has the right adjustability parameters for you. If you cant get the gun to fit you tightly and comfortably (and consistently) then it doesn't matter what it is is or how good the barrel is, you wont shoot great scores with it.
I personally tried to get the Walther annatomic but ended up with the gemini stock on my 1813. I tried both but the Walther was almost impossible to get hold of.
Rob.
I personally tried to get the Walther annatomic but ended up with the gemini stock on my 1813. I tried both but the Walther was almost impossible to get hold of.
Rob.
It's two components, essentially. A really accurate barrel and action, and a stock that fits you perfectly. As Rob says, and totally correctly, in my view, if you can't get a stock to fit you right, you'll never shoot brilliantly with it. After that, just get a very accurate barrel and action and away you go. Whether that be a benchrest setup as indicated above or an Anschutz or Walther or whatever or one of the above with an aftermarket barrel. On the benchrest front however, if it were really worthwhile, there would be more people doing it at world level, but I'm not seeing them.
Clearly there are two routes here, a good solid rifle and the money is no object rifle.
From the tone of your original post I get the feeling you are pretty new to the smallbore prone game. To this end, you might want to consider starting basic and working up. There was some discussion about a 1913 Anschutz which is a fine rifle. They are reasonably easy to find used, well understood and while not necessarily the most accurate thing out there will shoot better than most shooters, especially if you are just getting started. If there is such a thing, as target rifles go, a 1913 is budget friendly.
Next up is an Anschutz, Walther or FWB action in a different stock. G&E has been mentioned, there is MEC, Gemini and..... Again a fine choice, likely capable of outshooting most people who shoot such a combo. Aftermarket stocks vary in price from mild to wild. G&E stuff is excellent quality but you pay very dearly for it and I have not seen evidence that this approach offers a competitive advantage over more common hardware.
Another rung on the ladder here would be a complete Bleiker or G&E barrel, action and stock. Technically these are production rifles but there are so few of them around, especially in the US, they should be regarded as custom. Fine choices but if they offered a significant competitive advantage you would be seeing lots more of them. (to this end, the Bleiker may actually offer that advantage but the sample set is still kind of small to state that unequivocally)
Finally, there was the complete custom rig, adopted from the benchrest side of shooting. The rifle described by Bill Burkert sounds just fantastic and the benchrest folks know accurate. There is little question in my mind that the Hall action is better than say the Anschutz Match 54 action and that the aftermarket barrels mentioned are better than a stock barrel. If you are new to the game, there are so many different devices to tweak this rifle, unless you really understand everything you could spend lots of time working the tweaks, not getting any better and generally chasing your tail. Another problem with custom equipment, if you need help figuring something out there often isn't any.
At this point, if you are just getting started you don't really know what fits, what you like or if you even really like the smallbore prone game. This is why I personally point to a 1913 or similar, a great place to get started. If after a year you decide that you need something else, get that, cash out your 1913 and be happy with the experience.
Cheers,
'Dude
From the tone of your original post I get the feeling you are pretty new to the smallbore prone game. To this end, you might want to consider starting basic and working up. There was some discussion about a 1913 Anschutz which is a fine rifle. They are reasonably easy to find used, well understood and while not necessarily the most accurate thing out there will shoot better than most shooters, especially if you are just getting started. If there is such a thing, as target rifles go, a 1913 is budget friendly.
Next up is an Anschutz, Walther or FWB action in a different stock. G&E has been mentioned, there is MEC, Gemini and..... Again a fine choice, likely capable of outshooting most people who shoot such a combo. Aftermarket stocks vary in price from mild to wild. G&E stuff is excellent quality but you pay very dearly for it and I have not seen evidence that this approach offers a competitive advantage over more common hardware.
Another rung on the ladder here would be a complete Bleiker or G&E barrel, action and stock. Technically these are production rifles but there are so few of them around, especially in the US, they should be regarded as custom. Fine choices but if they offered a significant competitive advantage you would be seeing lots more of them. (to this end, the Bleiker may actually offer that advantage but the sample set is still kind of small to state that unequivocally)
Finally, there was the complete custom rig, adopted from the benchrest side of shooting. The rifle described by Bill Burkert sounds just fantastic and the benchrest folks know accurate. There is little question in my mind that the Hall action is better than say the Anschutz Match 54 action and that the aftermarket barrels mentioned are better than a stock barrel. If you are new to the game, there are so many different devices to tweak this rifle, unless you really understand everything you could spend lots of time working the tweaks, not getting any better and generally chasing your tail. Another problem with custom equipment, if you need help figuring something out there often isn't any.
At this point, if you are just getting started you don't really know what fits, what you like or if you even really like the smallbore prone game. This is why I personally point to a 1913 or similar, a great place to get started. If after a year you decide that you need something else, get that, cash out your 1913 and be happy with the experience.
Cheers,
'Dude
Last edited by justadude on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Burkert
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:08 pm
- Location: Fleetwood, PA
Dear Dave IRL:
I must respectfully disagree with your statement regarding the lack of benchrest ideas in prone shooting in world class competition...
Mr. Eric Uptegrafft is one name I can give you at the world class level who used benchrest ideas in the design of his action and his use of a tuner.
Looking at it another way, if the rifles used in position shooting were the most accurate rifles in the world, the rimfire benchrest results would be dominated by these same off the shelf rifles. They are not.
How does this apply to a prone rifle shot at 50 yards, 50 meters and then the real challenge at 100 yards?
I maintain that the value of a shot is the the sum of the following...
1) The accuracy of the rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter error.
3) Conditions.
All things being equal, the guy with the most accurate rifle wins the prone match.
Here are my assumptions.
1) Shooter A has a 1/2" (100 yards) rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter B has a 3/4" rifle and ammo.
3) Both shooters have an identical 1/2" "hold", for lack of a better word.
4) The shooters are side by side and shoot at the same instant where a wind pushes their respective bullets 1".
The result is that Shooter A has a ten (.5" + .5" + 1.0" = 2") and Shooter B has a 9 (.75" + .5" + 1.0" = 2.25).
I rest my case.
Bill
I must respectfully disagree with your statement regarding the lack of benchrest ideas in prone shooting in world class competition...
Mr. Eric Uptegrafft is one name I can give you at the world class level who used benchrest ideas in the design of his action and his use of a tuner.
Looking at it another way, if the rifles used in position shooting were the most accurate rifles in the world, the rimfire benchrest results would be dominated by these same off the shelf rifles. They are not.
How does this apply to a prone rifle shot at 50 yards, 50 meters and then the real challenge at 100 yards?
I maintain that the value of a shot is the the sum of the following...
1) The accuracy of the rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter error.
3) Conditions.
All things being equal, the guy with the most accurate rifle wins the prone match.
Here are my assumptions.
1) Shooter A has a 1/2" (100 yards) rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter B has a 3/4" rifle and ammo.
3) Both shooters have an identical 1/2" "hold", for lack of a better word.
4) The shooters are side by side and shoot at the same instant where a wind pushes their respective bullets 1".
The result is that Shooter A has a ten (.5" + .5" + 1.0" = 2") and Shooter B has a 9 (.75" + .5" + 1.0" = 2.25).
I rest my case.
Bill
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Bill Burkert
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:08 pm
- Location: Fleetwood, PA
I do agree with Justadude and the other folks here when it comes to your first rifle. An off the shelf 1913 will give you the accuracy you'll need to get started in this fascinating game of prone shooting.
I hope you'll get to enjoy it as much as I do to the point where it is an obsession requiring a psychiatrist's intervention!
Bill
I hope you'll get to enjoy it as much as I do to the point where it is an obsession requiring a psychiatrist's intervention!
Bill
Yes, you're right, one name, and certainly a significant one, but walk the line in Munich sometime and see how many use anything else so unconventional. Better yet, look at the finals. All else being equal is a total fallacy as well. The rifle's got to be accurate, but the shooter will be the determining factor in the end, in terms of their technique and their ability to read the conditions, and right now, if I had the choice of a better gun or better technique and condition reading, I'd be plumping for the latter all day every day. And in reality, if the advantages of a benchrest action were so significant, the other hundred people on the firing line of any world cup would be using them. They're certainly not skimping on their gear as it stands.Bill Burkert wrote:Dear Dave IRL:
I must respectfully disagree with your statement regarding the lack of benchrest ideas in prone shooting in world class competition...
Mr. Eric Uptegrafft is one name I can give you at the world class level who used benchrest ideas in the design of his action and his use of a tuner.
Looking at it another way, if the rifles used in position shooting were the most accurate rifles in the world, the rimfire benchrest results would be dominated by these same off the shelf rifles. They are not.
How does this apply to a prone rifle shot at 50 yards, 50 meters and then the real challenge at 100 yards?
I maintain that the value of a shot is the the sum of the following...
1) The accuracy of the rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter error.
3) Conditions.
All things being equal, the guy with the most accurate rifle wins the prone match.
Here are my assumptions.
1) Shooter A has a 1/2" (100 yards) rifle and ammo.
2) Shooter B has a 3/4" rifle and ammo.
3) Both shooters have an identical 1/2" "hold", for lack of a better word.
4) The shooters are side by side and shoot at the same instant where a wind pushes their respective bullets 1".
The result is that Shooter A has a ten (.5" + .5" + 1.0" = 2") and Shooter B has a 9 (.75" + .5" + 1.0" = 2.25).
I rest my case.
Bill