Dry fire practice AP and FP

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:20 pm

I know it is common for an AP60 competitor to also compete in FP. My question is, when it comes to dry fire exercises, is it normal to do exercises using only one of the pistols, instead of having dry fire exercises on both? This is assuming that both pistols have similar set up in terms of balance, weight difference is not that different, etc, and trigger weight (both at 500g).
The target should be similar, especially if I use SCATT to print out a ratio adjusted target for the FP.

For example, does it matter if I use my FP to do 200 dry fire exercises a day, or I do 100 on my FP and then 100 on my AP?

Live fire, of course, I need to do both.

No flames please, I am still a n00b, currently club-less and coach-less.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:16 pm

You'll find it impossible to match your AP and FP, so don't even try.

Obviously they have much in common, but they really are two different events with two different guns.

Set up each gun to "optimum" and let the chips fall where they may. Dry fire however suits you at the moment.

BEA · Post by **BEA** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:38 pm

At the world class level, all AP shooters shoot FP too. The reason for this is simple, because these 2 disciplines so completely compliment each other. I shot both all the time and had no issues switching from one to the other, oftentimes practicing both on same day. Dry fire the one that you feel you need the most work on, or the one the gives you the most satisfaction to dry fire. Both disciplines will benefit from dry firing the other because in either case you are practicing watching the sights while breaking the trigger...and you are exercising your arm. The difference in weight or balance is of no consequence, because each should be set up the way you want to be. I was so accustomed to both, that when I picked either up, it felt like an extension to my arm, fitting my hand perfectly.

John Marchant · Post by **John Marchant** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:39 am

Setting the FP trigger at 500grams might prove to be counter productive as normally most people will choose to set the FP trigger at a lighter weight than the AP, so that you get a good shot release without disturbing the sight picture and hold.
I know of some top class FP shooters who have their trigger set at around 100grams. It all depends what suits your style of shooting.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:36 am

I set the AP at 375g/125g; my FP at 4g single stage. My concern is that if I do dry fire at both, should I intentionally set a long period between them for practice every day...ie, I do all my FP in the morning, and all my AP at night, as opposed to FP then AP immediately after?

The sights are so different that I find it hard to adjust immediately, especially I do dry fire FP first before switching to AP. I am now seriously thinking about adjusting the sights on the AP so that it is closer to the FP.

John Marchant · Post by **John Marchant** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:10 pm

If you were shooting in a match, would you normally shoot FP followed by AP? If so, what time gap would you require to be able to adjust to the different sight picture etc.
It might prove to be more beneficial to shooot FP dry fire one day and AP the next.
If the sight picture/size on the AP gives you good consistent results, why would you want to potentially sacrifice the groups and scores to try to make it appear like the FP and vice versa.
It would probably be much better to have the two pistols set up for the optimum in each discipline so that you have to make the conscious effort to adapt to each pistol correctly and then you can build the muscle memory path to suit each pistol.
As you have mentioned that you have the trigger release weights at such vast differences this is going to require fairly advanced and potentially different triggering techniques.
The live fire muscular reaction is going to be completely different with each pistol and will take some time to fine tune.

David M · Post by **David M** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:02 pm

conradin wrote: my FP at 4g single stage. FP.

Wow, 4 grams on a Free pistol trigger is playing with fire.....
wonder what scores he shoots....?

John Marchant · Post by **John Marchant** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:17 pm

With only 4 grams on the FP trigger, don't leave the pistol loaded and in the sun as it may fire without your help!
You will need extremely fine muscle control and I think that your shooting will be most inconsistent as you will be too nervous to put any finger pressure on the trigger.
As previously mentioned, top class shooters might go just below 100grams, but not down that low. I am intrigued as to how you have actually measured that small a trigger pressure.

Coastwatcher · Post by **Coastwatcher** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:47 pm

The simple answer is that you should practice the way you compete. There are a lot of similarities between FP and AP but they obviously are not identical. I think you need to practice or dryfire both.

I would never set a FP trigger to 500gr in the idea of standardizing. You are giving yourself a needless handicap in FP if you do. Set the FP trigger to the minimum that you are comfortable and confident with and develop the muscle memory that goes with that setting. Most novices will have a bit higher trigger weight in the beginning and develop the confidence to reduce it over time. My first FP was set so light that it discharged when I just touched the trigger. This meant I held my finger off the trigger entirely until I settled in to to proper sight alignment then started trying to find the trigger. Not good. I increased the weight until I could maintain a light touch without discharging the shot. This allowed me to work on proper technique.

Best of Luck

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:49 pm

Maybe this is just my personal choice, counter against most people...the lighter the trigger, the more comfortable I feel. It has something to do with the fact that I am an organist and harpsichordist, which means I play these instruments' keyboard purely by touch. You are talking about the resistance of a key in the keyboard of an instrument literally being a bird quill and a hog bristle holding against a medium tension brass string. At 500g AP wise I already feel too heavy, but then again, it is the rule and I cannot change it.

David M · Post by **David M** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:45 am

The lightest trigger I have ever seen was on a russian shooters Toz free pistol. When cocked and lifted from horizontal to vertical, the weight of the trigger shoe set off the trigger.
My free pistol trigger is set at 55g in summer and 80g in winter. At this weight you can put your finger on the trigger, get the position right, pull through the fat on the finger until the finger sits firm on the shoe, then squeeze to shot release with minimal movement. The extra weight in winter allows for more feel.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:37 am

David M wrote:... When cocked and lifted from horizontal to vertical, the weight of the trigger shoe set off the trigger...

Back in the 1970s and 80s many (too many?) triggers on Webley & Scott Free Pistols were 'adjusted' to this level. I have seen one discharge when the shooter's finger was nowhere near the trigger, but he sneezed.

lastman · Post by **lastman** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:05 pm

conradin wrote:Maybe this is just my personal choice, counter against most people...the lighter the trigger, the more comfortable I feel. It has something to do with the fact that I am an organist and harpsichordist, which means I play these instruments' keyboard purely by touch. You are talking about the resistance of a key in the keyboard of an instrument literally being a bird quill and a hog bristle holding against a medium tension brass string. At 500g AP wise I already feel too heavy, but then again, it is the rule and I cannot change it.

I don't care what other experience you may have, 4g is too light. Especially if you are only new to the game. If you are more comfortable with a light trigger 50g should be your starting point. Until you can really control it, every single time. Then you can think about making it lower

It is FP shooting folklore how Skanakar used to be able to shoot with his trigger at 4g. He was (and still is) a freak! Even he only over talked about being able to 'bump' off the trigger.

A beginner FP Shooter (or most elite ones for that matter) does not have the ability to control 4g triggers when even a strong gust of wind can set off your trigger.

That being said, if you're not going to take heed of experience there's no point going on about it.

Don't use the SCATT for your training purposes. Reason being is that you're more focused on where the shot lands on the screen than the technique involved in shot production.

As for breaking up your training time, personally I like to do the majority of my training with my FP I use a ratio of around 70% FP and 20% AP. The other 10% is for playing around with other matches to stop boredom. But that being said, sometimes I get bored shooting FP and do more AP for a while, it really depends on what level you are at and where you think you will get the most benefit.

Good luck

lastman · Post by **lastman** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:05 pm

conradin wrote:Maybe this is just my personal choice, counter against most people...the lighter the trigger, the more comfortable I feel. It has something to do with the fact that I am an organist and harpsichordist, which means I play these instruments' keyboard purely by touch. You are talking about the resistance of a key in the keyboard of an instrument literally being a bird quill and a hog bristle holding against a medium tension brass string. At 500g AP wise I already feel too heavy, but then again, it is the rule and I cannot change it.

I don't care what other experience you may have, 4g is too light. Especially if you are only new to the game. If you are more comfortable with a light trigger 50g should be your starting point. Until you can really control it, every single time. Then you can think about making it lower

It is FP shooting folklore how Skanakar used to be able to shoot with his trigger at 4g. He was (and still is) a freak! Even he only over talked about being able to 'bump' off the trigger.

A beginner FP Shooter (or most elite ones for that matter) does not have the ability to control 4g triggers when even a strong gust of wind can set off your trigger.

That being said, if you're not going to take heed of experience there's no point going on about it.

Don't use the SCATT for your training purposes. Reason being is that you're more focused on where the shot lands on the screen than the technique involved in shot production.

As for breaking up your training time, personally I like to do the majority of my training with my FP I use a ratio of around 70% FP and 20% AP. The other 10% is for playing around with other matches to stop boredom. But that being said, sometimes I get bored shooting FP and do more AP for a while, it really depends on what level you are at and where you think you will get the most benefit.

Good luck

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:14 am

If you know what kind of instrument a harpsichord or a clavichord is, and that I am a professional player...

...if you measure the key pressure of the keyboard of these instrument:
a harpsichord is 15g, a clavichord is around 25g, an organ is 35g.

And a 15g key pressure can be considered too heavy for a lot of performers.

So yes, I literally have to float my fingers on the keyboard. I can also put my finger so light on the trigger that I will not misfire it. Everything is by touch. So maybe I am a special case, or I am a fool.

Putting too much pressure on a key means you play a wrong note, putting too much pressure on the trigger means you screw up your shot.

BTW, I do agree with your ratio: I do 75FP and then 25AP dry fire every day.

David M · Post by **David M** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:43 am

You miss the point, it is very difficult to control a 4g trigger, to the point of being dangerous and asking for AD's.
One of the main reasons is that you need to grip the pistol with the other fingers.
It is nearly impossible to have the required tension in the rest of the hand to firmly hold the pistol whilst having such a low tension in the trigger finger to control such light trigger.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:58 pm

Half an ounce key pressure on a harpsichord? That's amazing, but of course you don't disturb the instrument by poking it harder.

I experimented with very light triggers for a while, but I found it took too much concentration to avoid an unwanted shot. That concentration was better spent on sight alignment, but I understand the Russians are trying to devote most of their concentration to the triggering process.

Could be right!

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:13 am

If you poke it harder it DOES disturb the instrument, especially the clavichord. All to its complexity a lot of harpsichord does not have consistent key pressure, so some keys are 10g, most have 15g, some 25. Great players adjust very quickly.35g is way too much and unacceptable.
Just like harpsichord, it takes me quite a bit of time to get used to the trigger weight: touching the trigger without firing. But I am used to "floating" my fingers on something. Also keyboard players are used to make their fingers independent, so the trigger finger can have very light touch, while the rest can have heavy touch to grab the grip strongly. I play these instrument for over 15 years now, play in numerous major concerts, so I am so used to it. Sometimes I even have trouble playing piano because the key pressure is too heavy and I don't like it.

john_almighty · Post by **john_almighty** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:26 am

Well to each his own I guess. Although I am also in the camp which thinks the weight is too light. Unlike your musical instument, the pistol shoots pretty lethal lead so I would also be cautious from that point of view. Just be careful that your gun does not go off outside your target area else you will have a tough time in any range and definitely in a competition. good luck with your training. when I am outside UK, I usually train on AP on one day and FP another day. they are different and I dont want my memory to try to repeat somethign that works with AP in my FP practise.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:21 pm

Thank you for the advice. One thing I learn also is the procedure of loading and setting it safely. I do everything on the table in 45' using a sissy back.
The trigger is very light so I need to eliminate any chance of hurting anyone including myself. I will not set my pistol until I am ready, and usually won't touch the trigger when it is 5 degree above the bullseye.