Model 52 leading question

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:01 pm

I have been trying to shoot a Model 52 on a budget and reloading is not an option in my apartment. I've tried a couple of remanufactured loads. I have no prior experience by which to judge, but I think that this last batch is leading excessively. I cleaned the barrel until it was absolutely clean and mirror bright and used it yesterday for just 30 rounds. Attached are the before and after pix. The second shot was taken after I pushed a brush and patch though it to knock off the loose debris, so I assume most of what's left is lead. Is it excessive? Also, should I be concerned about the crud buildup along the front of the chamber?

Thanks

Roger

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:54 am

Looks like lead to me. The charge is probably too heavy. Switch ammo manufacturers. Zero ammo is very good. You can find reman .38 SPL hbwc ammo on their website: http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... e=ZBA-38SP

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 am

Misny:

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it's lead. It took me over a half hour to get it out with a bore brush and lead removing cloth. The stuff in the chamber was the most resistant, and that worries me a bit.

The ammo you recommended is listed as WCDE, which I assume means wad cutter double ended. I've been shooting HBWC which seems to be the most popular bullet used in this gun. Zero also offers HB rounds (with a $3/50 premium over the DE) so I may try those next.

Even if another brand is somewhat cleaner, should I still expect to have a vigorous cleaning session after every outing? If I have to spend almost as much time cleaning as shooting, I may just set this gun aside until I can start reloading my own.

Roger

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Just take a tired bore brush and wrap it with a few strands of copper "Chore Boy" scouring pad. A few strokes will rip that stuff right out.

You could easily fit a Lee reloading kit in a shoebox and reload while swilling your evening beer in front of the TV. I've had good luck with Speer swaged HBWC's.

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:30 am

RandomShotz wrote:Misny:

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it's lead. It took me over a half hour to get it out with a bore brush and lead removing cloth. The stuff in the chamber was the most resistant, and that worries me a bit.

The ammo you recommended is listed as WCDE, which I assume means wad cutter double ended. I've been shooting HBWC which seems to be the most popular bullet used in this gun. Zero also offers HB rounds (with a $3/50 premium over the DE) so I may try those next.

Even if another brand is somewhat cleaner, should I still expect to have a vigorous cleaning session after every outing? If I have to spend almost as much time cleaning as shooting, I may just set this gun aside until I can start reloading my own.Roger

I have a S&W model 52-1 and I don't get lead in any great degree. It is possible that the reman ammo you are using is too "hot". With Zero ammo you shouldn't have any huge leading problems. I sent you the wrong link for the ammo. You would do best to stick with the 148 gr. HBWC bullet for your. I use them to reload my own ammo for my model 52-1.

Unless you have something in your lease preventing reloading, you should be able to set up a portable stand for a reloading press in a closet. The activity shouldn't disturb your neighbors. You can then tailor ammo to your specific pistol. I used the hand held Lee Loader when I first started out reloading in about 1971 or so. I lived in an apartment at the time, but it was a single-story with thick cinder block walls between units. Loading with the Lee loader requires that you have a wooden mallet and hammer the cartridges. It is perfectly safe, but will make more noise than a reloading press. You can see a Lee loader here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/459280 ... 38-special It is better than buying factory ammo, but it is very tedious and took me about 45 minutes to reload 50 rounds. With a single stage press, you can cut your reloading time in half. This link will give you an idea of what you can do in an apartment: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/1 ... etc-3.html The only thing that would be a problem is tumbling brass. Any of the tumblers make quite a bit of noise and some might leave lead dust about. When I started out, I would only clean my brass by washing it in a solution that I put in an air tight container. I shook it and dried the brass on a cookie sheet in a mildly warm oven. It worked fine for brass that wasn't corroded and just a little dirty. You won't have the prettiest brass around, but it will be clean and reload and shoot just fine.

Although I'm sure the comment about reloading in another response was intended to be humorous, if you start reloading, give it your full attention. That means no tv watching, chatting with friends, texting, drinking alcohol or any drugs that would impair you.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Misny:

The reloads may be too hot - have not chrono'd them. I have read elsewhere that some bullets purchased pre-lubed have bits of lead debris in the grooves so that may also be a problem. But I am going to take Rover's advice about the "chore boy" (I assume that isn't a typo, and he isn't really suggesting I pick up a "choir boy", but with Rover you never know ...) because I still have 100 rounds of the stuff from Ventura left.

Misny wrote:... you should be able to set up a portable stand for a reloading press in a closet.

Hahahahahahahahahaha. My closets would make Fibber McGee run for cover.

I don't have any restrictions on my lease w/ respect to handloading. The hammering was one of the things about the Lee Loader that was hanging me up. I am seriously considering the Lee Challenger kit:

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/p ... _Press_Kit

I was warned that I should buy a primer and powder scale, since those with the kit are marginal. I suppose I could set it all up in the kitchen on one of those work-mate benches that showed up in your link. And I know enough to take reloading seriously- no TV or beer or anything like that. Maybe a couple of shots to steady my hand, but that's different.

Roger

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:40 pm

Much reloading is just a mindless drone where you might do hundreds of cases in one step...suitable for beer and TV.

Just be careful with your powder and priming.

The kit you mentioned would be perfect, but Lee also makes a "nutcracker" type press for when you don't want to set up an entire outfit. Works well for a friend of mine.

PS I DID mean choir boy.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:18 pm

Are you referring to this?

http://www.cabelas.com/presses-dies-lee ... it-3.shtml

That might be perfect. I'll have a closer look on line this evening, but after a quick browse it looks like the people who use it, like it. And it will be easier to use in front of the TV (but don't tell Misny).

Roger

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:52 pm

There are reasons I don't trust other people's reloads.

ghillieman · Post by **ghillieman** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:39 pm

Thats a lot of leading for 30 rounds!!!!

I clean out lead deposits with a bore brush, a patch, kroil, and JB bore cleaning compound, it works wonders and quick.

Mount a reloading press to a 2x4 and C-clamp it to the dinner table, take it off and put it up when your done.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:02 pm

RS...That's the item! Make sure you get a set of carbide .38/.357 dies with it. You'd also want a scale, but I would actually reload using a powder dipper, which work well and are cheap.

I don't suggest it for a guy who does a lot of reloading, but if you were shooting, say, International Center Fire (70 rounds), it would be just fine.

The whole outfit takes very little space, but I would rather use the Anniversary kit, a whole other ball game.

I don't know why Misny is so leery of handloads; I don't blow up more than three or four guns a year and that's only because I'm distracted by choirboys. BTW I'm thinking of entering the priesthood. I considered running for Congress by I thought there would be more choir boys than pages.

Leon · Post by **Leon** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:31 pm

Rover wrote:Just take a tired bore brush and wrap it with a few strands of copper "Chore Boy" scouring pad. A few strokes will rip that stuff right out.

You could easily fit a Lee reloading kit in a shoebox and reload while swilling your evening beer in front of the TV. I've had good luck with Speer swaged HBWC's.

+ 1 for both suggestions.

I use the copper Chore Boy as well and it cleans like a dream. Could not find ay equivalent in Australia so I bought a box of the stuff off Amazon.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:37 pm

I have decided to go with the Lee hand loader. I can only get enough range time to fire 250 or so rounds per week at most, and that includes FP practice which is my main interest right now anyway. The hand loader should cover my needs nicely and be easy enough to pack away when I'm done. I'll stop by Sportsman's paradise some time this week and see what I can get.

Oh, and I did pick up a choir boy as you suggested, Rover. I don't know why you thought that was a good idea - the kid doesn't know anything about cleaning gun barrels. Nice voice, tho' ...

Roger

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:17 pm

I forgot...you'll really want one of those Lee priming tools that look like the starship Enterprise and a shell holder for it. They are great tools.

Hmm, maybe I'll reconsider Congress. The pages may be a little smarter.

Levergun59 · Post by **Levergun59** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:47 am

That looks like bullets that are undersized to make that amount of leading in 30 shots. I would slug the throat end of that barrel. Measure the groove size and shoot bullets that are .001 over groove size. The worst leading is caused when propellant gas excapes around the sides of the bullet. The loss of this gas reduces chamber pressure and does not allow the shell casing to expand to fill the chamber. Lead can then travel and get between the case mouth and the chamber wall, which is what I am seeing here. Hope this helps
Chris

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:10 am

The above is correct, but may not apply here. The 52's bore runs about .355 so the "usual" .358 bullets would be fat enough, especially with expanding HBWCs (which you were not using).

Get that bore clean and try some of "your" handloads and see what happens.

j o danielsson · Post by **j o danielsson** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:51 am

If you are using a flatbase bullet and getting leading like that, it means the bullet is too small. The size of the bullet before you put it in the shell is not important. The size of the bullet when it comes out is.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:20 pm

j o danielsson: I have not pulled a bullet to check but they are supposed to be HBWC.

I have ordered a reloading setup and expect it to be here next week. I will use one of the bullets to slug the barrel just to make sure that it is in spec, but I see no reason why it should not be. But I suspect that levergun is right about the heavy deposit at the mouth of the chamber being difficult to explain unless something was coming back and getting between the case and the chamber wall.

Something just occurred to me: I noticed that the .38 special brass also comes in a +P variety. Are they stouter than ordinary .38 spl brass? Since the re-man loads were from a range, could a few +P cases have failed to expand with the "moderate" loads intended for the 52?

Roger

Levergun59 · Post by **Levergun59** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:26 am

P+ brass is a lot thicker. With a "normal" cast bullet and P+ brass you might not be able to chamber a round unless the chamber is oversize or the bullet is undersize. I couldn't chamber any P+ brass in my Colt 38. I used a commercial HBWC with VV N310. N310 is possibly the fastest powder on the market and should obdurate the skirt of the HBWC to seal the barrel and also push the brass to seal the chamber. Sometimes it is necessary to not shoot a bare minimum of powder in an auto 38. They are picky about the loads they digest. Hope this helps.
Chris

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:20 am

Okay, so that probably explains a lot of my problem. If a+P case did not expand and some blowback got into the chamber, then that would explain why I had a failure to extract. I don't know what I'm going to do with the last 100 rounds of this stuff, but I'm not comfortable shooting it in a 52.

I bought the gear and a bunch of Winchester brass. The Starline stuff was out of stock. In fact, a number of supplies were out of stock at Midway. It seems that people are hoarding in anticipation of Pres. Obama's re-election, and we all know what he did to gun owners last time.

Roger

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