TargetTalk

Quick background;

I shoot an Izzy normally with RWS Meisterkugeln and R10 match pistol pellets cause it seems to work the best in it.

My usual scores are in the 540-550 range.

Shot this weekend here in Phoenix for the state match and scored a 524 and a 536 using Finale Match special selected airpistol pellets.(as it says on the lid of the tin).

I felt I shot as good as I usually do, but the shots seemed not on call.

Brenda Shinn asked me how I did after todays match and I replied better than yesterday but not real well, I think my pistol does not like the pellets.
She asked if I knew the weight of them, maybe too heavy.

That got me thinking, when I got home I weighed and measured them.

The H&N's were .52 grams (rifle pellets)

Would this cause my scores to drop below my average or was it just me this weekend ?

It said air pistol, not air rifle and I did not bother to check before shooting them.
There is no weight of the pellets on the tin, just the diameter of 4.50mm

Clarence Perkins

What were the sighting shots saying before the match started? ie. Pellets hitting lower than "usual"?

It is plausible that the slower velocity has made some mistakes more apparent, like a short follow through.

Now that you're home, shoot a few targets with each and see if your scores are the same. It may have been something at the match you were doing differently. It's easy to lose concentration on the front sight at a match.

Pellet weight in my IZH had an effect, but it was small and I can't say for sure that it wasn't mental. I liked shooting the heavier pellets, seemed like they "flung" less when I'd have a shot were I thought it'd be WAY out. Both were RWS (lights are Meisterkugeln, heavy are R10) though, I've never bought H&N pellets.

Do you normally have match nerves? They can easily account for 30 points.

Yesterday during the first match shooting the 524 I did have to raise the sights.
The knobs on the Izzy are really easy to turn, so thought that they moved while transporting, or just the new pellets...

While shooting I noticed that I was not following through and John Zurek concurred.

Today I made sure I was following through and scored 12 pts higher.

I went into today ready to shoot, but was let down by my score, not my shooting.

Therefor the heavy pellet debate LOL..

My next question is are these pellets in the tin mislabeled or is that the way H&N does it(ie. airpistol pellets with the weight of rifle pellets) ?

I think from now on I will stick with what works.

Will go to the range this weekend and shoot the R10s for piece of mind.

Just for specs.

H&N's .52gr .177"head .182" skirt
R-10 and Meister's .45gr .176" head .183" skirt

P.S.
No match nerves here.
I just compete against myself.


Clarence

You can find out everything I know about the subject here:

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=30593

I had a discussion about pellets with Warren Potter.
He told me, and it makes sense, that the lighter AP pellets were primarily for spring and SSP pistols. This is to compensate for the smaller powerplant in these pistols to get the velocity up to where they want it. The heavier pellets work just fine for CO2 and CA pistols where the powerplant does not need a lighter pellet to get the velocity it wants.

Having said that, the gun chooses the pellets. Shoot whichever pellets score the best for you in your gun. It could be that your AP does not like the H&N pellets.

I use the Vogel Sport for ALL my target shooting; spring, SSP, CO2 and CA, in both AP and AR. The Vogel Sport is the heavier AR weight pellet.

Something that was taught to me YEARS ago. Never change your setup before a big event. If you do, you could change the one thing that will mess you up. If you want to try a different pellet, do that at a practice session, not a match. So yes, I would keep using what works best for you.

gud luk

Rover;

Did you test .52 gram rifle pellets compared to .45 gram pistol pellets ?

Clarence

Why would switch to untested pellets goimg into a match?

"Rover;

Did you test .52 gram rifle pellets compared to .45 gram pistol pellets ?"

Yes. If you open the url inside the one I just posted you'll find everything.

Bottom line? I'm almost certain it was you.

Sorry to sound mean when I say this, but I don't want you to be under any misgivings about what I have to say.

"Stop looking for excuses!" It was not the silly decision to change your pellets that caused you to shoot poorly, it was you!

Heavier weighted pellets can cause your group to shift (slightly.) But within your first 5 (10 at a maximum) sighting shots you will have seen that and moved your sights accordingly. From there you would have shot normally.

Now lets examine some real causes for your poor result. Your 526 is the poor result. The 534 is slightly below average, that can happen when your at important events.

Without knowing where your 'centre of group' was it is hard to tell with great accuracy, but there's a few clues in what you wrote.

The first thing I would suggest is that your not actually watching your sights. You said that your shots "were not on call." If you're not calling correctly, that is usually a big clue that your not actually watching and aligning your sights.

Everyone's brain is lazy and what happens is that when your shooting and not entirely focused on what's happening, your brain will essentially play a recorded image of your sight picture, causing you to think you're watching the sights when you not really doing so. The only way to stop this is to commit every part of yourself to every shot you shoot.

The other is lack of preparation. You were not prepared to shoot a good match. If you were, you would have had your proper pellets with you.

You said you went into the match "ready to shoot." To me that sounds like someone who is not being totally honest with themselves. If you were truly prepared to shoot well, you would have.

Match preparation is critical to shooting well. It gives you the best platform to work from and allows you the confidence to go into a match knowing that you have done all that is required to shoot well.

As you said, you are a 540-50 shooter. Not a 575-80 shooter. If you we're a 575-80 level shooter, then you could possibly look at the pellets as a cause. If you ransom rest your pistol with these pellets I'd be pretty confident they'll hold a 1 pellet group.

I don't want this to sound mean, but you really need to be honest with yourself about the cause for your poor result if you wish to learn from it and move onto better results in the future.

Good luck.

Some excellent comments from lastman. I'm going to print off the comments and put it in my logbook for future reference.

Doing some informal shooting on an indoor range I was shooting my Izzy
at 25 yards on a 25 yard slow fire target. 20 shots, and I can't even see
any holes. It was good for concentration. 8 clicks up for my Izzy.
I brought the target forward and found 4 shots low, 7,6,6,5. The rest
were 8-8, 2-9, 6-10. About a 3 inch group.
I was happy with the group but wondered about the low shots.
Last weekend I weighed a new 500 tin of basics that were
throughly washed.
Most of the pellets were 7.15, 7.2, and 7.25 gr.
About 3 dz. were 7.05 or 7.1 gr.
Another 3 dz or so were 7.3 or 7.35.
But I also found about 6 at 6.75 or 7.0 and about 6 at 7.4 or 7.45.
And these last dozen or so were somewhat deformed if you looked close.
Only 2 were bad upon a quick look.
A tin of HN finale match deviated only + or - .5 from stated 7.5 gr.
4 shots low out of the group, maybe not at 10 m but bad pellets will
show up at 25 yards. Shoot the good stuff for a match..

I found the point of impact change from light to heavy pellets unnoticeable. I once shot 5 Hobby (6.9 gr)and 5 JSB S100 (8.4 gr) at a single target with a K60 and scored 98.

I hate to quote myself (from post above), but there it is.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Rover;
Thanks for the pellet test link, I never read it.
I usually read your crap(lol), but not this.
See you at the range.
By the way, it probably was just me...

V76;
Yes, the slower pellet.
I made a conscious effert the second day to follow through and scored just below my average.

Orionshooter;
Sometimes I do some strange things(lol)
Have not been shooting AP but a couple years off and on.
I assumed all pistol pellets were .45 grams with some deviation in diameter.
The tin that said pistol was of heavier weight(my bad for assumption).

Lastman;
You didnt sound mean.
I do not take anything personaly anymore, too old for that.
I do enjoy the constructive critism though to improve my shooting.
I get it from John Zurek and Steve Reiter all the time...
It all helps.
Just to let you know, I shot skeet competatively for a few years before I took up bullsye shooting 3 years ago.
AP is just something to do in my spare time and I enjoy it.

To all that responded;
I have dabbled into a lot of different shooting disciplines all at the same time.
Skeet, bullseye, mid range high power, free pistol, air pistol.
The economy has and is forcing me to cut out some disciplines and focus more on maybe a couple of them or only one...
Air Pistol will be one of them cause it is the cheapest after initial purchase.

To go along with my Izzy, I am thinking of a Steyr LP10e...
The Izzy in the back yard and the Steyr at the club range(cause it will be too loud, ie neighbors, dogs and etc...)

Thanks;
Clarence Perkins