TargetTalk

Last weekend at a State ISSF Championship an interesting discussion was had between several shooters, the range officer and a judge:

Why do we have "Malfunctions" allowed in ISSF events?

The majority of those in this discussion would compare to other events such as IPSC, Action Match, Service, etc... which do NOT have allowable malfuntions.

Basically the arguments put forward by those againt a Malfuntion is:

1/
If you dont have your pistol and ammo ready for competition and you malfunction, tough luck. No reshoots, just accept you malfunctioned and keep going...

2/
If your gun greaks, pull out your "second" gun and complete the match (if main gun cant be repaired)

3/
If you cant afford a 2nd gun, then dont complain when your lack of preperation and gun maintenance causes a malfuntion.

4/
Dont enter big events like regionals, state, nationals or international unless you know your gear works perfectly (i know, this is a silly one)

So I thought it would be interesting to hear some comments from the members here...

cheers
Brad

No. Target shooting is (was supposedly) preparation for the battlefield. Who holds up their hand (with a malfunction) there? Clear the round and fire again.

chuckjordan wrote:No. Target shooting is (was supposedly) preparation for the battlefield. Who holds up their hand (with a malfunction) there? Clear the round and fire again.

Ok, but today ISSF target shooting is preperation for the battlefield, it is competition for precision shooting. Target pistols today and fussy tools that dont leave room for error, unlike modern combat firearms...

But you also get situations which I had at this years State Titles where the gun was fine but the ammo, which was Eley Match, was playing up, actually had one where the projectile just fell out. So I think Malfunctions should be allowed unless it is definately the gun.

Greg R wrote:But you also get situations which I had at this years State Titles where the gun was fine but the ammo, which was Eley Match, was playing up, actually had one where the projectile just fell out. So I think Malfunctions should be allowed unless it is definately the gun.

I agree Greg.

When your gun malfunctions, it may not be a problem with the pistol itself, but the ammunition. When reloading you should accept part blame for problems with centrefire (depending on what the problem is)... but with .22, you buy quality ammo only for that ammo to not work. Why should a competitor be punished for something out of their control?

For any shooter to suffer a malfunction, be it the first or the last shot, its VERY hard for most, impossible for the elite to recover.

But, the malfunction rule gives that shooter an advantage. Doesn't that shooter then proceed to take 5 additional shots on the same target? And the top scores in that target used for record?

Say your first 4 shots were all 9's and then a malfunction. You shoot 5 more (per rules on the malfunction) and you hit 5 - 10's. You've actually gained 14 points because of a malfunction.

I know this is a rare scenario, but, I but it does happen more often then we care to admit.

chuckjordan wrote:But, the malfunction rule gives that shooter an advantage. Doesn't that shooter then proceed to take 5 additional shots on the same target? And the top scores in that target used for record?

Say your first 4 shots were all 9's and then a malfunction. You shoot 5 more (per rules on the malfunction) and you hit 5 - 10's. You've actually gained 14 points because of a malfunction.

I know this is a rare scenario, but, I but it does happen more often then we care to admit.

How do you gain 14 points? The most you would gain in that situation is 10 points... because you would lose the highest four shots!

You are only better off by 10 points, but that is better than nothing... If there were NO malfunctions, you basically lose 50 points... and no chance of a top 20 finish!

chuckjordan wrote:But, the malfunction rule gives that shooter an advantage. Doesn't that shooter then proceed to take 5 additional shots on the same target? And the top scores in that target used for record?

Say your first 4 shots were all 9's and then a malfunction. You shoot 5 more (per rules on the malfunction) and you hit 5 - 10's. You've actually gained 14 points because of a malfunction.

I know this is a rare scenario, but, I but it does happen more often then we care to admit.

I thought it was the five lowest that counted.

Freepistol wrote: I thought it was the five lowest that counted.

Thats right, so if the shotoer already has 36/50 with one shot not fired and an "alowable malfunction"

They shoot 5 more shots with the maximum possible score of 46/50 for that series.

i would say we keep the malfunctions.
because
1) not everyone is allowed to reload and even in high quality .22 you can have a round that will not go off
2) malfunctions punish your score ( and your confidence ). they certainly don't earn you points

Because people shouldn't be penalised because the ammo manufacturer made a mistake?

JamesH wrote:Because people shouldn't be penalised because the ammo manufacturer made a mistake?

far enough... and I agree

But what if the gun breaks, as the argument also mentioned a 2nd of each gun is required in case you suffer a breakage.

That was the funniest comment, as for most people having a duplicate of each is not financially viable when you doing for sport/hobby

cheers

Malfunctions are relevant to ensuring equality amongst competitors so that no-one is handicapped by ammo failure or gun breakage. It is, for both NRA and ISSF events, the LOWEST scores that are kept, except in ISSF centrefire where the malfunction series is "completed". But recall that there are limits to the number of malfunctions allowed, and procedures to dis-allow malfs.
ISSF is NOT training for combat as the action events purport to be, but then "action" pistols do not bear much resemblance to combat weaponry. It is marksmanship competition, guys!

Dr Jim

Dr. Jim wrote: ISSF is NOT training for combat as the action events purport to be, but then "action" pistols do not bear much resemblance to combat weaponry. It is marksmanship competition, guys!

Dr Jim

Well, "action" pistols in IPSC, IDPA and like often do resemble combat weaponry. It's just the IPSC Open guns that look more like science fiction props. I shoot IPSC with stock CZ-85, H&K USP40 and in select matches a stock Colt Combat Commander .45. Check the guns allowed in the Production Division ( http://www.ipsc.org/rules/proddiv.php ), pretty much service type guns.

Well, that's the guns. The sport is a sport, not combat training. In the case of IPSC, many techniques and even rules are very impractical considering combat situations.

Back to malfunctions. While allowable malfunctions would never work in IPSC, the ISSF disciplines are different. The rules limit quite effectively misusing malfunctions. As it is simple to score the shots (in IPSC it isn't, as there is the time aspect) even with an interruption, you don't get unfair advantage, quite the opposite when the lowest hits are scored. Allowing reshoots lessens the arms race to some extent. What would we gain by not allowing them? Slightly less hassle and spent time in matches. What would we lose? Shooters would potentially need to spend more money on equipment and ammo than otherwise necessary to achieve their level. Also, I think we would lose some integrity in striving for marksmanship.

Optimally, there would be no equipment problems and asking the question "who is the best shooter when accuracy is concerned" would be easy to answer. And I think that's the point in these disciplines. A malfunction is not a proof of a bad marksman. Maybe it's a question of lacking skills in gun maintenance, lack of money buying the guns and ammo, bad luck etc. But if the effect of these can be diminished by allowing a couple of malfunctions, why not? We get a more accurate picture of the shooting skills.

Mika

Good argument Mika.

But I do hold that most IPSC pistols would have some compromises in the real combat role - light triggers (often well below the ISSF limits) and the ability to function in mud, dust, and water etc.

Anyway, the allowed malfunctions are intended to equalize the potentials of the competitors.

Cheers

Dr Jim

Most of the arguments have already been brought forward. But to those who might think that a malfunction gives an advantage to the shooter just this. In all rapid fire series (SP and RF) the shooter can have a retry, shooting the 5 shots and being awarded with the lowest values. Only in the center fire rapid only the missing shots can be added. But in every case 'doubt' slips in the shooters mind! That only is already a punishment!

Dr. Jim wrote:Good argument Mika.

But I do hold that most IPSC pistols would have some compromises in the real combat role - light triggers (often well below the ISSF limits) and the ability to function in mud, dust, and water etc.

Dr Jim

Depends on the Division. As mentioned, Production is for pretty much unaltered production guns. There is not much you can do, and for example the trigger must be double action for the first shot, and at least 2.27 kg (5 lbs).

But, you are totally right about the Open Division. The rules mostly state that the ammo must meet the power factor requirements and the magazine can be max 170 mm long. You can use optics, compensators etc. No limits on triggers etc.

Malfunctions are in a rather significant role in training for IPSC. The faster you can clear them, the faster you are back shooting. I've seen people clear simple failures really fast, sometimes getting top ranking results on a stage where they had a malfunction. Doing it instinctively may be unsafe in some situations, though. For example, you have a primer drive the bullet into the barrel, rack the slide and shoot two bullets with one powder charge. Bad thing. You need to correctly identify what happened.

But still, it's a different sport. The requirements are different, and so are rules. I have to say I'm quite happy with the current rules regarding malfunctions in both styles of shooting.

Mika

My 2-cents worth is that ISSF is all about precision shooting and not precision firearms or ammunition. Having the last two will help but at the end of the day it must be "who is the most accurate shooter". As gn303 said: having the malfunction and the ensuing doubt it sows must be punishment enough.

For ISSF shooting events that allow malfunctions. It make sense because it provides shooters at least one opportunity to come back if lady luck is not on his side on that particular day. Most ISSF shooters, especially those on the international level, train everyday for hours and then a malfunction occurred during a competition, you can imagine how disappointing it will be.

Another thing is in ISSF shooting, you cannot change to a second pistol in the course of competition.

No matter how much preparation you make in advance, you cannot prevent perfect operation. Imagine this, In the course of the 20 seconds stage of SP, one empty case jammed at the ejector port. Do you think you have enough time to pull the slide and load again. As a matter of fact, if it is something needs repairing, I don't think that will be possible as the shooter will not be provided any time to do so. It only provides an opportunity in case the malfunction is caused by a round of bad ammo.

I have watched a final for FP some years ago in the Olympics and one shooter's pistol failed. He had to call the day off and watched others to finish.

ISSFFP wrote: Imagine this, In the course of the 20 seconds stage of SP, one empty case jammed at the ejector port. Do you think you have enough time to pull the slide and load again.

If it weren't the last round and time almost up AND the gun were something like a service pistol, easily. You'd probably have enough time to change the magazine as well. BUT, the standard pistols of these days are not service pistols, and some of them can fail in very creative and fascinating ways. As much as I love my MG2, it's a pain in case of any malfunction. Luckily for me, it very rarely malfunctions in any way. For example, there is no room to pull a live round from the chamber without a lot of fiddling with your fingers. And if you remove the magazine before it's empty, you have to shake one loose round out of the tube well. And there is at least one type of jam that requires removing four screws and the top of the gun to clear.

AND above all, this sport is not about fast recovery from problems. If you like it (as a part of the sport, I don't know about any jam-clearing competitions...), go IPSC, IDPA etc. I do, so I shoot the more action style disciplines as well as ISSF ones.