TargetTalk

As a pistol competitor, I have always dry fired during a USA Shooting match. This is particularly true when resuming after a break in AP or FP. And, this is a common practice in matches in the USA, including the Nationals.

I have been told by rifle folks that they are not allowed to ever dry fire during a match. However, the ISSF rules are the same for both rifle and pistol. So, what is the correct answer?

TIA

Stan

They may have been confused, you can dryfire during the match (make certain you don't release air by accident or its a zero) but you can't dryfire during Finals.

As Richard says.

See 6.11.4.1.1:-
"Any release of the propelling charge, after the first competition target is in place, without a hit on the target will be scored as a miss. Dry firing without release of the propelling charge is permitted except during Finals."

Many precision air rifles have a dry-fire switch so that this is easy to do.

To my knowledge, none of the sporter air rifles have the capability to dry fire w/o removing the cylinder

Interesting comment that you can't dry fire during finals. I was in a final this year, alongside ex commonwealth and olympic games competitors, and they were dry firing, but not sighting ie - they were working the trigger on the morini ap whilst they were waiting between shots with the ap resting on the bench. Allowable? Within the letter of the rules but not the spirit? You be the judge.

Anonymous wrote:Allowable? Within the letter of the rules but not the spirit?

Definitely not allowable.

ISSF rules make a clear distinction between aiming exercises and dry firing.

Aiming exercises are specifically allowed under 6.16.4.5.5

Dry firing is specifically banned under 6.16.4.5.6 and 6.11.4.1.1

I've heard them doing it at World Cups too, just cause no one gets called on it doesn't make it not against the rules and it certainly doesn't mean no one will never get called on it. One day someone will get called or someone who needs a quota will challenge it, and it would be a crappy way to loose .

That said aiming exercises during finals are allowed, just no clicking of the trigger.

At the recent IPC World Cup, a girl in the prone finals had what looked like a misfire due to a light strike or bad round. She did not claim a malfunction but raised the bolt to re-cock and fired her shot. This was considered dry firing and it cost her a medal.

I'm not sure where you heard this, but I've always thought that it was okay to dry fire. It seems like you guys have the rules have verified this. Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was wondering what the right answer was.

USMC0802 wrote:At the recent IPC World Cup, a girl in the prone finals had what looked like a misfire due to a light strike or bad round. She did not claim a malfunction but raised the bolt to re-cock and fired her shot. This was considered dry firing and it cost her a medal.

I don't know wether this is a correct decision, but its certainly unfair and indicates some of the jobsworth level our sport has sunk into if it is.

David, I'm sure you'll know, is this a correct decision?
Surely you can correct a malfunction which this was with no signal if you can do it with in the time. A deliberate dry fire is different and is covered by the rules, surely this was a malfunction which the shooter corrected?
Robin

Very interesting!! Its a jobsworth dream!

Rule 6.2.2.6.1 "Dry firing means the release of the trigger mech of an unloaded cartridge gun"

So it could not be considered a dry fire!

But Rule6.12.2.3 states in regards to malfunctions "That all such events must be reported to the range officer and jury so they may decide what action"
So presumably they may dissalow the shot on that ground if she just recocked with no signal and by retaking without permission?
BUT! that rule is clear and it does not state when it should be reported, before retaking it or after, so a real jobsworth would argue that, and the range officer saw it so was aware, unless the gun was reloaded with a fresh cartridge and then there is no proof she had not loaded an empty, surely its a wrong decision?
Come on David give us the correct answer.
Robin

RobinC wrote:Come on David give us the correct answer.

I'm not sure whether I can give you the "correct" answer, but I can certainly give you "an" answer.

I don't know how closely IPC rules follow ISSF rules but, under the latter, I would certainly be looking at the "MALFUNCTIONS" section of 6.16.5.

We only have a brief description of what happenned. If there were no other factors then, again under ISSF rules, the shooter would presumably have thought about following the Verbal Protest / Written Protest / Appeal route.

David Levene wrote:

RobinC wrote:Come on David give us the correct answer.

I'm not sure whether I can give you the "correct" answer, but I can certainly give you "an" answer.

I don't know how closely IPC rules follow ISSF rules but, under the latter, I would certainly be looking at the "MALFUNCTIONS" section of 6.16.5.

We only have a brief description of what happenned. If there were no other factors then, again under ISSF rules, the shooter would presumably have thought about following the Verbal Protest / Written Protest / Appeal route.

It surely needs to be declared as a malfunction at the time, how are the jury to know it wasn't a dry fired shot with only the shooters word for it ?

As mentioned though, I'd appeal the decision.

Rob.

I think RobinC has it correct, if it were not a final.

6.12.1.1 ALLOWABLE MALFUNCTIONS in competitions are:
6.12.1.1.1 a cartridge fails to fire;

Describes that a cartridge failing to fire should be ruled a malfunction,
--but--

6.12.2.3 In all cases the Range Officers or Jury must be informed so they may decide on the measures to be taken.

ROs or Jury must be notified so that they can decide on the action.

I tend to think and apply with the intent of the rules (what I perceive is correct) and I also shoot a bit a shotgun, and if this happens there you don't do nothin' but call the RO of official over. They'll check 1) if trigger was pulled, then 2) open the gun and look at the shell (maybe busted FP).

I teach my rifle shooters in those terms, call the official over ... it's easy to see if a bolt is cocked, and then to open the bolt and see if a cartridge is in the rifle and if it's been struck.

HOWEVER --- IN A FINAL ---

6.16.6.4.2 If a shot has not been fired due to a malfunction, a shooter may try to correct the malfunction in the shooting time remaining. After attempting any correction he may not claim an ALLOWABLE MALFUNCTION, unless a part of the gun is damaged sufficiently to prevent it from firing.

Seems to be clear that the shooter may try to fix it, but they may not try to claim a malfunction after trying the fix.... a real risk if they have an honest to goodness dud. Me ... I think it's safer to call the RO over, let them find a misfire and give me more time.

I don't think it should have been considered a dry-fire as the shooter was probably under the impression (and proved correct) to have a live cartridge in the gun. I'd agree with David to appeal, but fault the shooters judgement ... she had a valid "out" and did not take it.

I'd like to see the range report and wonder if the shooter appealed (and to what the written jury decision was)

I think under the pressure of the final, if it went click (or not!) instead of bang, it would be an almost instinctive thing to re cock.
To me regardless of any rule, she got no unfair advantage, so it should be OK. If it was ruled otherwise then the system is wrong,

I thought it was a sport.
Good Shooting
Robin

Great discussion - points out why juries are needed for rules interpretations & why it is important for competitors be trained on the rules and how to react when different things happen.
In this case a Jurist went to line & spoke with shooter. Returned from line and informed CRO & announcer that 2 points penalty accessed because "shooter dry fired." Immediately after the finals the shooter's coach had discussion with jury. Do not know if actual appeal made or not.
I suspect most experienced shooters would raise hand in a situation where their gun does not fire. Certainly wise if they know what all the afore mentioned rules state.