I have been shooting for just over a year now
I have been using 2 of the qb 2078
one I have left stock the other I've been modifying
just to learn my way around an airguns.
I realize that moding a 2078 is putting lipstick on a pig
(relative to real match rifles)
I shoot over 200-300 pellets a day. I will never be very good
(lithium shakes and need eye surgery grin)
I set up 3 ranges one in my garage
one in my back barn, and one outside.
(i go inside when its to hot or cold or the neighbors start
poking around.)
But I want to start competing in some local event
Age has not completely cut off my my need to compete.
(had to give up racing motorcycles a few years ago)
I am going to need a gun
Ive been looking at Anschutz and fwb.
the p700 basic and the club 8002
I'm am more than sure either of these guns will outshoot me
for the rest of my life
Is there any reason to up grade to an alum. stock?
Both have wonderful reputations
They seem to be the ones with the most parts and service available
any other suggestions?
I am more prone to go new, I realize a
used target gun may be a dud or it may have all the
"problems" taken out.... Its a gamble I'd rather avoid
as I really don't know what a good gun feels like.
I have shot some high end guns but not enough to really know
what it should feel like.. Am I on the right track with my thinking.
I am also thinking of going to go for some coaching..
to make sure if I have bad habits I catch them now.
I'm on the the lookout for someone to spend a day or two with me.
I need the correction on the basics not fine tuning!
I've been taking videos of myself and comparing my approach
to what I've seen here and other place.
(One of the funniest moments of my life is when I told
My lady friend of 35 years we were going to make a "video"!!!!!)
After finding out what I was talking about she was so relieved she
helped out gladly!
I've been reading up on eye surgery for shooters
Does any one know of a surgeon that has worked on shooters
I am willing to travel.
The people I have talked to here give me a blank look.
I went to the teaching/research center here and
they acted like they would be more than happy to experiment.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
thanks
jd
newbie at 60 I'm longwinded with questions
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
proneshooter
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:09 pm
- Location: Charleston, S.C.
The first question is where are you located and what type of shooting. Benchrest, precision, or position? That way someone nearby will be able to help you. You should if at all possible attend a match and try to sample the different guns. A junior club should be willing to help out a senior competitor. There are several good books available on shooting that would get you started in the right direction. Good luck and good shooting.
Go to this page and take a look at 2 books
http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
Ways of the Rifle
Air Rifle Shooting (this book came out after Ways of the Rifle or I would have just gotten this book)
They are GREAT books.
I have both of them and wish I had them before I started shooting. The problem that I have with books is that I cannot see myself. So in some cases, I cannot determine if I am following the book or not. I can be in a wrong position and not able to determine that I am in the wrong position. For this you need another set of eyes, or maybe a camera would do.
As for coaching.
When I first started shooting, I shot so bad that I was going to quit before I really got started, I was totally frustrated. Out of despiration, I got a coach to help me and man was that ever a good decision. He totally rebuilt my stance and I was able to shoot well enough to have fun. Or put it another way, at first I would be putting shots OUTSIDE the 1 ring, after coaching I was able to keep my shots inside the black. OK not at the 90% level for competition, but a heck of a lot better than before.
Now I use a combination of what my coach taught me and what I read in the books.
About the stock.
My coach told me something interesting.
In extreme temperatures HOT or COLD, a wood stock is more comfortable to handle. It won't burn you or freeze you. Granted the contact points of an AL stock are wood, when I handled an AL frame rifle, I was grabbing and holding the AL itself.
In a similar situation I was shooting a steel frame 45, the ambient temp was over 105F. After a while the grip got so hot that I could not comfortably hold the pistol and I had to stop shooting. This was hot from the ambient temp, not direct sun as the pistol was covered between shooting sessions to keep the sun from directly hitting it. After that experience I understood what my coach said.
I guess that is one benefit of the polymer frame pistols.
http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
Ways of the Rifle
Air Rifle Shooting (this book came out after Ways of the Rifle or I would have just gotten this book)
They are GREAT books.
I have both of them and wish I had them before I started shooting. The problem that I have with books is that I cannot see myself. So in some cases, I cannot determine if I am following the book or not. I can be in a wrong position and not able to determine that I am in the wrong position. For this you need another set of eyes, or maybe a camera would do.
As for coaching.
When I first started shooting, I shot so bad that I was going to quit before I really got started, I was totally frustrated. Out of despiration, I got a coach to help me and man was that ever a good decision. He totally rebuilt my stance and I was able to shoot well enough to have fun. Or put it another way, at first I would be putting shots OUTSIDE the 1 ring, after coaching I was able to keep my shots inside the black. OK not at the 90% level for competition, but a heck of a lot better than before.
Now I use a combination of what my coach taught me and what I read in the books.
About the stock.
My coach told me something interesting.
In extreme temperatures HOT or COLD, a wood stock is more comfortable to handle. It won't burn you or freeze you. Granted the contact points of an AL stock are wood, when I handled an AL frame rifle, I was grabbing and holding the AL itself.
In a similar situation I was shooting a steel frame 45, the ambient temp was over 105F. After a while the grip got so hot that I could not comfortably hold the pistol and I had to stop shooting. This was hot from the ambient temp, not direct sun as the pistol was covered between shooting sessions to keep the sun from directly hitting it. After that experience I understood what my coach said.
I guess that is one benefit of the polymer frame pistols.
The MEC Air Rifle shooting book is a very good source of information. I've been able to fine tune my position using the information in this book and some coaching. I spend 95% of my time practicing at home with dry firing. When at the range I take a few dry fire shots to settle down before taking sighter shots. This is to check my natural point of aim. At my club they have a full length mirror with a white centerline dividing it in half. This is useful to check the alignment of the hips. One method I have used at home is to put a chair behind my legs. This has helped me to be more consistent in the standing position.
Proudhon, first of all welcome to the air/small bore shooting sporting community. It's awesome that you have chosen to take this up. Do not be discouraged by your age. This is one of the few sports where you can continue to perform at a high level into advanced age. Has anyone seen any 40 year old gymnasts at the Olympics? (No disrespect meant to gymnasts). Don't be afraid to set high standards for yourself, but at the same time forgive your failings (this is a Readers Digest version of the cornerstone of the psychology of shooting).
As to resources, both of the books previously cited published by MEC are excellent, invaluable and indispensable (oh, and expensive). They are however, dense with information which can be difficult to process or understand initially. An actual coach can save you a ton of time. David Tubbs the champion high power shooter similarly has written 2 books which while geared to the Highpower shooter have relevance to small bore. He explains Natural Point Of Aim (NPA) very well (What The Ways Of The Rifle refers to as 'the zero point'), as well as other general shooting concepts. It really helps that he was once a small bore competitor, and that his original text language was English, and not German.
As to eyesight, I have been idly researching the same question. I have no actual real world experience with eye doctors, and I had been casually inquiring of associates and friends in the medical profession whether any one knew of a sports optometrist/opthamologist. Seems they are exceedingly rare animals, but the NY Times to the rescue! According to a NY Times article Dr. Bill Harrison of Slow The Game Down, and Dr. Donald Teig of The Institute For Sports Vision consult with Major League Baseball on sports vision related issues. I do not know where they are located, but a Google search should not be difficult. As an aside, I would guess that the AMU, and USA Shooting would have one or two people squirreled away. If anyone knows who they are I would like to hear about it, as long as it doesn't break the 'Small Bore Shooting Secrecy Act'. :) Someone local, with a good rep. is most likely your best bet.
Aluminum stock vs. wood, pros and cons to both, discussed in multiple previous forums. I do have both, and I prefer the Aluminum for consistency, but the wood for comfort. So really, you have to balance your priorities. This site and the people on it are a really great resource, just enter in your search questions, and you will get more reading material and feed back than you can absorb in several sittings.
Good shooting!
As to resources, both of the books previously cited published by MEC are excellent, invaluable and indispensable (oh, and expensive). They are however, dense with information which can be difficult to process or understand initially. An actual coach can save you a ton of time. David Tubbs the champion high power shooter similarly has written 2 books which while geared to the Highpower shooter have relevance to small bore. He explains Natural Point Of Aim (NPA) very well (What The Ways Of The Rifle refers to as 'the zero point'), as well as other general shooting concepts. It really helps that he was once a small bore competitor, and that his original text language was English, and not German.
As to eyesight, I have been idly researching the same question. I have no actual real world experience with eye doctors, and I had been casually inquiring of associates and friends in the medical profession whether any one knew of a sports optometrist/opthamologist. Seems they are exceedingly rare animals, but the NY Times to the rescue! According to a NY Times article Dr. Bill Harrison of Slow The Game Down, and Dr. Donald Teig of The Institute For Sports Vision consult with Major League Baseball on sports vision related issues. I do not know where they are located, but a Google search should not be difficult. As an aside, I would guess that the AMU, and USA Shooting would have one or two people squirreled away. If anyone knows who they are I would like to hear about it, as long as it doesn't break the 'Small Bore Shooting Secrecy Act'. :) Someone local, with a good rep. is most likely your best bet.
Aluminum stock vs. wood, pros and cons to both, discussed in multiple previous forums. I do have both, and I prefer the Aluminum for consistency, but the wood for comfort. So really, you have to balance your priorities. This site and the people on it are a really great resource, just enter in your search questions, and you will get more reading material and feed back than you can absorb in several sittings.
Good shooting!
I'm still racing motorcycles, 125GP, but my days are becoming numbered especially from the last fall off. I've just started shooting as well, but I know that when I am relegated to track days and no racing, I'll be able to attack this shooting thing more seriously. I haven't shot either of those rifles, but I would imagine that they are both superb. I used to own an FWB CO2 model, and I loved it.
Also, I think that your idea of getting a coach is ideal. Wish I had one in the San Diego area.
Good luck,
Joel
Also, I think that your idea of getting a coach is ideal. Wish I had one in the San Diego area.
Good luck,
Joel
Rifle
The oldest Olympic Shooter was 72 so you have many good years of shooting left in you.
Getting a coach would be a great idea as you want to learn the correct way for shooting before you get any bad habits. Breaking bad habits can take time and ad to your frustrations. I have been coaching kids for almost 20 years and one of the toughest problems I get is a kid that has been taught by their father some bad practices. I am getting more and more of these kids because most of these fathers never learned to shot themselves. It has taken me up to year to break these bad habits.
I have used and own both the P700 and 8002. I favor the FWB P700 over the 8002 even though the Anschutz is a little lighter. However, your choice might be different as you might favor some features over one model over the other. They both have the capability of shooting excellent groups and the same basic adjustments. The P700 Alu stock model is designed to meet most of the max legal specification for a rifle thereby eliminating the need for buying some extra attachments. The weight of the rifle is already close to the maximum weight allowed for the rifle so their isn't much weight you can add to the rifle and the rifle already has built-in adjustable sight riser blocks. The adjustments for trigger slack uses an external small knob by the trigger housing instead carrying around a different size allen wrench. The stock has adjustments that uses knobs, which allows for finer adjustments.
The only negative comment that I have heard are from a few women shooters who felt that the FWB P700 was a little front end heavy which was pulling the rifle out of their shoulders. This problem can be solved know with the introduction of the FWB Evolution Model. The Evolution uses a Aluminum Sleeve instead of a steel sleeve saving a couple of pounds. You can put an Evolution barreled action into a FWB P700 regular aluminum stock (if you don't like the Evolution Stock) and not only get a lighter rifle, but save a couple of $200 or $300 dollars in the process. You can buy the Evolution Model and save money it is priced at almost the same price as the wood model and still give you some of the same basic adjustments of a aluminum stock. This illustrates why the FWB weights more then a Anschutz as the FWB uses more metal and steel parts.
The number of P700 Aluminum Stock models at the Junior Olympics have almost or equaled the number of Anschutz rifles on the firing line and some years they were more FWBs. I have only noticed a few of the wood FWB on the firing line and the one's that I did see were the older P70s. The other wood models that I did see were the Walther LG300 Juniors most of them sold through the CMP years ago and the newer Anschutz Club rifles. The Walther LG300 have been a good rifle especially for our juniors as they have put the rifles thru alot of use with so far not much problem. Well there was one problem when we initially got the rifles from the CMP the five rifles cylinders couldn't be filled without losing most if not all the air. We had to send back two sets before we got a set that could hold the air on a refill. The Anschutz Club guns have been forming okay, but I am dreading the day that I have to get the guns regulators fixed.
I use to shot the 8002 for about a year and the regulator or seals died on me so I had to send it back to have the regulator rebuilt and seals replaced. Well I got a phone call back telling me that you can't rebuild the regulators or just replace a few seals on the newer Anschutz air rifles as they built the rifle with a module,which costs $240 where as if you could just replace parts and pieces on an older model the price would have been around $130 and with our dollar heading south everyday it's probable more expensive now that the Fed is destroying the value of the dollar.
I have shot many different models Anschutz, Steyr, FWB, Walther and Pardini air guns and everyone has needed rebuild (with a couple of exceptions) after about about a year of shooting. I shot about a 100 rounds a day when I was shooting each of the guns at one time or another. The exceptions that didn't need a rebuild (knock on wood) were the FWB P700 (five years going on six) and Walther Alutec (four years).
You can save some money buying a wood stock model, but the price difference between a wood and a lower priced aluminum stock model maybe only about $300 and most if not all Anschutz rifles don't come with sights so you'll have to add another $350 to $500 for sights and if you feel that you need to add extras such sight riser blocks and weights that will drive the cost up even further.
If your shooting international 10 meter air rifle I don't think you have to worry much about temperature extreme as the only places I have seen these type of competition held has been indoors. The only exceptions to that are in Florida and Hawaii. The only weather conditions they worry about is rain and hurricanes.
These are just my opinions and observations and I am sure there is somebody out there will a different one. The best thing you could do is to go to some of these competitions and ask some of the competitors to try out some of these rifles and see what feels good to you.
Getting a coach would be a great idea as you want to learn the correct way for shooting before you get any bad habits. Breaking bad habits can take time and ad to your frustrations. I have been coaching kids for almost 20 years and one of the toughest problems I get is a kid that has been taught by their father some bad practices. I am getting more and more of these kids because most of these fathers never learned to shot themselves. It has taken me up to year to break these bad habits.
I have used and own both the P700 and 8002. I favor the FWB P700 over the 8002 even though the Anschutz is a little lighter. However, your choice might be different as you might favor some features over one model over the other. They both have the capability of shooting excellent groups and the same basic adjustments. The P700 Alu stock model is designed to meet most of the max legal specification for a rifle thereby eliminating the need for buying some extra attachments. The weight of the rifle is already close to the maximum weight allowed for the rifle so their isn't much weight you can add to the rifle and the rifle already has built-in adjustable sight riser blocks. The adjustments for trigger slack uses an external small knob by the trigger housing instead carrying around a different size allen wrench. The stock has adjustments that uses knobs, which allows for finer adjustments.
The only negative comment that I have heard are from a few women shooters who felt that the FWB P700 was a little front end heavy which was pulling the rifle out of their shoulders. This problem can be solved know with the introduction of the FWB Evolution Model. The Evolution uses a Aluminum Sleeve instead of a steel sleeve saving a couple of pounds. You can put an Evolution barreled action into a FWB P700 regular aluminum stock (if you don't like the Evolution Stock) and not only get a lighter rifle, but save a couple of $200 or $300 dollars in the process. You can buy the Evolution Model and save money it is priced at almost the same price as the wood model and still give you some of the same basic adjustments of a aluminum stock. This illustrates why the FWB weights more then a Anschutz as the FWB uses more metal and steel parts.
The number of P700 Aluminum Stock models at the Junior Olympics have almost or equaled the number of Anschutz rifles on the firing line and some years they were more FWBs. I have only noticed a few of the wood FWB on the firing line and the one's that I did see were the older P70s. The other wood models that I did see were the Walther LG300 Juniors most of them sold through the CMP years ago and the newer Anschutz Club rifles. The Walther LG300 have been a good rifle especially for our juniors as they have put the rifles thru alot of use with so far not much problem. Well there was one problem when we initially got the rifles from the CMP the five rifles cylinders couldn't be filled without losing most if not all the air. We had to send back two sets before we got a set that could hold the air on a refill. The Anschutz Club guns have been forming okay, but I am dreading the day that I have to get the guns regulators fixed.
I use to shot the 8002 for about a year and the regulator or seals died on me so I had to send it back to have the regulator rebuilt and seals replaced. Well I got a phone call back telling me that you can't rebuild the regulators or just replace a few seals on the newer Anschutz air rifles as they built the rifle with a module,which costs $240 where as if you could just replace parts and pieces on an older model the price would have been around $130 and with our dollar heading south everyday it's probable more expensive now that the Fed is destroying the value of the dollar.
I have shot many different models Anschutz, Steyr, FWB, Walther and Pardini air guns and everyone has needed rebuild (with a couple of exceptions) after about about a year of shooting. I shot about a 100 rounds a day when I was shooting each of the guns at one time or another. The exceptions that didn't need a rebuild (knock on wood) were the FWB P700 (five years going on six) and Walther Alutec (four years).
You can save some money buying a wood stock model, but the price difference between a wood and a lower priced aluminum stock model maybe only about $300 and most if not all Anschutz rifles don't come with sights so you'll have to add another $350 to $500 for sights and if you feel that you need to add extras such sight riser blocks and weights that will drive the cost up even further.
If your shooting international 10 meter air rifle I don't think you have to worry much about temperature extreme as the only places I have seen these type of competition held has been indoors. The only exceptions to that are in Florida and Hawaii. The only weather conditions they worry about is rain and hurricanes.
These are just my opinions and observations and I am sure there is somebody out there will a different one. The best thing you could do is to go to some of these competitions and ask some of the competitors to try out some of these rifles and see what feels good to you.
Alum. it is
I think your right about the alum. stock...
The only complaint I heard about alum. stock is they got cold.
I'm not going to be shooting in the cold so I think I can live with that!
I was mistaken in the thought of trying to get off cheap
I've always notice that if you spend a little more to buy much better equipment you enjoy it for years and quickly forget the money.
..
(Is it obvious I've never been married and have no kids!).
There are some 4h competitions locally so I may check them out
This week end is the Daisy get together I'm only a few hours away
and I'm told some clubs put up info tables so I'll check that out.thanks for all the advice. The U of Michigan has a team and a coach I will call them for advice on a coach... They seem like a decent sort I meet a few of them
and they were very helpful..
I'm ordering the books and I'll start looking for a coach this weekend!!
JD
read beyond here at your own risk (grin)
The Motorcycles I'm talking about here a very obscure so if you not familiar with them please excuse the rest of this post..
You must be quite a bit smaller (bad word but you know what I mean)than mysef. I'm 6'2
I raced a xr 750 and tz 750 when I was active (I used a rocket III in a
north frame until the yamaha's went by me like I wasn't there)
Lately I was racing a couple old kr 750's one regular kr the other a
krtt.
I've also been trying to flattacki an old BSA rocket III in a trackmaster (no kidding)
and a trident in a Rob North copy
I hurt myself bad at Road Atlanta (armco next to a motorcyle racing track yeah that was smart) and when I passed 55 I couldn't throw the flattracker
any more (the kr still runs not rear break on FT.
I was never really that good
I had the rare combination of no talent no courage
just to stupid to slow down!!!
The only complaint I heard about alum. stock is they got cold.
I'm not going to be shooting in the cold so I think I can live with that!
I was mistaken in the thought of trying to get off cheap
I've always notice that if you spend a little more to buy much better equipment you enjoy it for years and quickly forget the money.
..
(Is it obvious I've never been married and have no kids!).
There are some 4h competitions locally so I may check them out
This week end is the Daisy get together I'm only a few hours away
and I'm told some clubs put up info tables so I'll check that out.thanks for all the advice. The U of Michigan has a team and a coach I will call them for advice on a coach... They seem like a decent sort I meet a few of them
and they were very helpful..
I'm ordering the books and I'll start looking for a coach this weekend!!
JD
read beyond here at your own risk (grin)
The Motorcycles I'm talking about here a very obscure so if you not familiar with them please excuse the rest of this post..
You must be quite a bit smaller (bad word but you know what I mean)than mysef. I'm 6'2
I raced a xr 750 and tz 750 when I was active (I used a rocket III in a
north frame until the yamaha's went by me like I wasn't there)
Lately I was racing a couple old kr 750's one regular kr the other a
krtt.
I've also been trying to flattacki an old BSA rocket III in a trackmaster (no kidding)
and a trident in a Rob North copy
I hurt myself bad at Road Atlanta (armco next to a motorcyle racing track yeah that was smart) and when I passed 55 I couldn't throw the flattracker
any more (the kr still runs not rear break on FT.
I was never really that good
I had the rare combination of no talent no courage
just to stupid to slow down!!!
Racing superbikes is what helped me get into paralympic type shooting!!
I have both an 8002 aluminum and a P700 aluminum with an evolution action. Since I am paralyzed and weight and balance can be an issue, I purchased the evolution action after awhile. Both are great guns but after shooting smallbore, the air rifles feel light and I'm starting to add weight to the 700 and really didn't need the weight savings. However, I can place the weight anywhere I want it now. There are things I like about both rifles The Walther is another rifle that should be seriously considered.
Since you mentioned U of M, I'm assuming you live in the Ann Arbor area. I saw a posting in shooters lounge in the last month or so about someone trying to get people for an intro to shooting class which is free and in the Detroit Metro area I believe.
You can also contact Tom Monto. He is the assistant paralympic coach and runs a lot of matches in Michigan where he lives. You can find his postings under disabled shooting.
Also, Anshutz as well as everyone else sells their rifles with sights included so you will not have to shell out an extra $300. If you are buying a smallbore rifle, FWB and Walther come standard with sights (and are priced accordingly) but the Anshutz smallbore rifles do not come standard with sights.
As for aluminum or wood stock on the air rifles, the aluminum stocks can be more adjustable but might not be necessary for you. It is always a good feature to have if you can afford it but I do find the wood stocks to be more comfortable in the hand. The barrelled actions are the same regardless of whether it is an aluminum or wood stock. Even though I don't shoot a wood stock air rifle, I know my scores would be the same as they are with aluminum.
good luck
I have both an 8002 aluminum and a P700 aluminum with an evolution action. Since I am paralyzed and weight and balance can be an issue, I purchased the evolution action after awhile. Both are great guns but after shooting smallbore, the air rifles feel light and I'm starting to add weight to the 700 and really didn't need the weight savings. However, I can place the weight anywhere I want it now. There are things I like about both rifles The Walther is another rifle that should be seriously considered.
Since you mentioned U of M, I'm assuming you live in the Ann Arbor area. I saw a posting in shooters lounge in the last month or so about someone trying to get people for an intro to shooting class which is free and in the Detroit Metro area I believe.
You can also contact Tom Monto. He is the assistant paralympic coach and runs a lot of matches in Michigan where he lives. You can find his postings under disabled shooting.
Also, Anshutz as well as everyone else sells their rifles with sights included so you will not have to shell out an extra $300. If you are buying a smallbore rifle, FWB and Walther come standard with sights (and are priced accordingly) but the Anshutz smallbore rifles do not come standard with sights.
As for aluminum or wood stock on the air rifles, the aluminum stocks can be more adjustable but might not be necessary for you. It is always a good feature to have if you can afford it but I do find the wood stocks to be more comfortable in the hand. The barrelled actions are the same regardless of whether it is an aluminum or wood stock. Even though I don't shoot a wood stock air rifle, I know my scores would be the same as they are with aluminum.
good luck
Yes, I am quite a bit shorter. About 5'6" on a good day. Actually, on a very good day :)
I am familiar with those bikes. You are indeed a brave man. I would love to put my sorry ass on the TZ750, but I would imagine I would soon regret it. Never been flat tracking, but it looks like those guys are having a blast. Would have loved to have gotten into it when I was young. I started racing at about 44 years old and now rip around on 250 and 125 2 stroke bikes.
I think you'll do good with either of those rifles. If the funds are available, I think the latest and greatest with aluminum stock is the way to go.
Best of luck,
Joel
I am familiar with those bikes. You are indeed a brave man. I would love to put my sorry ass on the TZ750, but I would imagine I would soon regret it. Never been flat tracking, but it looks like those guys are having a blast. Would have loved to have gotten into it when I was young. I started racing at about 44 years old and now rip around on 250 and 125 2 stroke bikes.
I think you'll do good with either of those rifles. If the funds are available, I think the latest and greatest with aluminum stock is the way to go.
Best of luck,
Joel
I was told that the s200 or t200 if it beared the daisy name was grandfathered? do not know about the new CZ200 though which has no daisy markings on it. mark
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