TargetTalk

Okay did shoot one competition, didn't pan out that great as I had not shot more than 200 bullets during training. I was trying to learn from a friend who participates in SP and was using his pistol, a Walther GSP. Shot 446/600 and didn't come anywhere close to qualifying for the pre-nationals.
In air pistol I found that people here really taught me how to improve thru practicing the right things.

I would request all of you who shoot Sp to share your secrets again ha...ha... :-). Sorry but your good nature and generosity has spoiled me.
At the moment I don't have a SP but will go though the motions of getting another license and then look for a rusting 'High Standard' or something. Trust me you don't wanna know what a used WaltherGSP goes for. :-)

Regards,

Dev

The way I used to shoot Standard Pistol (average over 570 in my best years) was as follows:-

150 Seconds
5 individual aimed shots.

20 Seconds
5 individual aimed shots without bringing the gun down (normally completed in 12-14 seconds). Normally completed on the initial breath but pleanty of time to take an additional one if needed.

10 seconds
Shot on a pre-determined, much practised, trigger rhythm. It didn't matter where the sights were pointing (obviously providing they were safe), the shots broke exactly on that rhythm. The only thing I had to do was line the sights up in the right area of the target: the trigger looked after itself.

Whether the above would have worked for me without training 100,000+ rounds per year is difficult to say.

Hi David,

In the 150 secs one lowers the pistol and raises it for every shot?
Even I have found it easier to shoot the 20 secs in a smooth exhale.
I am finding my ten seconds series to be erratic, have rhythm at times and at times forget to raise the pistol and get the sights aligned before the ready command.
100,000 rounds in a year? Even if I sell my soul I won't have access to that much ammo. Our renowned shots are allowed to import 15,000 a year and novices like me have to continually scrounge for ammo.
But I understand the rigour that all the ISSF disciplines demand.
Thank you for your tips. :-)

Dev

The problem with Standard pistol is the three distinct times.
To shoot a 570 you need a 195, 190, 185 or about these scores.
150's - slow fired precision.
10's - timed fire similar to rapid 8's. Plenty of time but need good trigger control.
20's - give most people the problem of breathing. 20 seconds is too long for one breath, too short for individual breaths.
Most people have no problem with the 150's, but use a watch on the bench.
The 20's are usually rushed and shot in about 12 to 14 sec (one breath), and the tens they try too hard and snatch everwhere in about 6-8 sec.
Learn the timing well, learn to control the trigger well.
Choose your pistol and the trigger setup more towards a precision trigger 2 stage trigger with just a slight rolloff on second stage to help with the faster shooting.

Dev wrote:In the 150 secs one lowers the pistol and raises it for every shot?

You could, but not necessarily. There are shooters who use exactly the same technique for the 150 secs and the 20s secs. Actually, if you look at the top results, the 150 series and 20 series are often almost equal. Which means that the slow aimed single shot approach, natural as it may seem, does not work alike for everybody. Some even shoot better in the 20 seconds series.

Alexander

Dev wrote:Trust me you don't wanna know what a used WaltherGSP goes for. :-)

A used Walther GSP is worth at best about 150 to 200 Euros in its motherland, these days. And not many want to buy it.

Alexander

And this intro, Dev, might just be what you have been looking for:

http://www.pilkguns.com/c13.shtml

Alexander wrote:And this intro, Dev, might just be what you have been looking for:

http://www.pilkguns.com/c13.shtml

I should go over there and buy them all up and import them here, they still go for about $1000 in Canada.

Dev wrote:Hi David,


Even I have found it easier to shoot the 20 secs in a smooth exhale.

Dev

A smooth exhale?? Are you really exhaling during the shot procees?? If so, I think this could be a problem. Exhaling creates constant changes to the muscular/skeletal portion of the body responsible for providing support. Changing the level of support in mid shot strikes me as very detrimental to the shot process.

I believe most shooters exhale to a comfort point and hold that breath until the shot(s) are released. At least I used to think so . . .

orionshooter wrote:I believe most shooters exhale to a comfort point and hold that breath until the shot(s) are released. At least I used to think so . . .

That's certainly the way I always shot the 150s and 20s.

10s (and the Rapid stage of CF) were shot with an inhaled breath on the raise, being held during the shot process.

In my limited experience of standard pistol, the 10 second series, if shot poorly, is more often than not because the first shot is rushed. If you allow 3-4 seconds to settle then you still have ample time to shoot the series. People will equally often compress the whole thing so as to finish in 6 or 7 seconds. If you finish, have time to slowly lower with the targets still facing or a green light, then you have shot too quick. Equally if all around you are still shooting when you've finished.

One of the major skills is to learn the recoil characteristics of the gun (and ammo) and shoot with it rather than fighting it. Once you learn it it becomes much easier. Something I never mastered.

Rob.

Hi,

I can't believe the level of coaching that I am getting from you folks. :-).
Thanks to our terror scenario the import of firearms has been restricted since 1984. So even a lowly rifle or pistol costs a hundred times what it costs overseas. For instance the GSP costs about 2and a 1/2 to three lakh rupees. That in American Dollars would be around $5,500 at Rs. 2 and a half lakh price.
The only way to import a pistol is by shooting 95% in the nationals which is the minimum qualifying score. So as far as the pistol goes I can't do much.
What I can do is learn the correct technique from you all and then practice like mad.
Thank you for pointing out the pilkguns article, need to read it again. Yes my breathing is wrong for the twenty seconds and the 150 will try what has been recommended.
Please explain one more thing which appears to be faulty as a theory. When the pistol is at 45* is that the time to align the sights? Or is it when you have the time to raise it after the attention command?
Another thing that I can't understand is does wind become a factor, if it is really gusting? One of my groups went five o'clock exactly the way I have seen in a wind diagram. It seems to be exactly the way the bullets move when affected by wind at fifty meters, specially when it is blowing from the right. I have tried asking people some have said that the distance is too short for wind to have an affect.
My strategy was to shoot the 150 in twenty seconds and was shooting the twenty in about 16 secs. Trying to take my time time and shoot the twenty in eighteen made me lose my rhythm. I shoot the ten in eight seconds but right now my practice is hardly anything. Will begin in earnest soon.

With gratitude,

Dev

Dev wrote:Please explain one more thing which appears to be faulty as a theory. When the pistol is at 45* is that the time to align the sights?

If you are setting you wrist correctly then the front sight won't be visible at the 45 degrees position; it'll be too low.

As you start to raise the pistol the front sight will creep up the rear sight notch. If you lift above the normal aiming area then the front sight will rise above the top of the rear sight.

You set your wrist angle by lifting into the aiming area, aligning the sights, and then lowering to the ready position without altering your wrist angle.

With enough training you will learn the correct wrist position and you will be able to raise the gun with your eyes shut, open them, and the sights will be perfectly aligned.

David Levene wrote:

Dev wrote:Please explain one more thing which appears to be faulty as a theory. When the pistol is at 45* is that the time to align the sights?

If you are setting you wrist correctly then the front sight won't be visible at the 45 degrees position; it'll be too low.

As you start to raise the pistol the front sight will creep up the rear sight notch. If you lift above the normal aiming area then the front sight will rise above the top of the rear sight.

You set your wrist angle by lifting into the aiming area, aligning the sights, and then lowering to the ready position without altering your wrist angle.

With enough training you will learn the correct wrist position and you will be able to raise the gun with your eyes shut, open them, and the sights will be perfectly aligned.

Further to David’s information...

Yes- it takes practice (as in LOTS), but it works!

Do NOT (as in never, ne jamais, whatever) look down at the pistol in the READY position – and this applies to ALL 25m events/stages that have the READY position.
The lowest angle you should lower your eyes (i.e. the head never lowers once you have your pre-shot/series alignment) is equivalent to about an apparent metre or two at the target. The eye can then follow the sights to the aiming area when the pistol comes into your eye line.

Many top shooters do not lower the eyes at all.
Look at the front-on shots of the top Rapid Fire or Womens 25m pistol shooters in the ISSF TV and for most their eyes are in alignment with the target from the final sight picture until they raise the pistol.

If your pistol comes up with the rear sight on the wrong part of the target, it is a practice problem : if your pistol comes up with the sights misaligned it is a ‘hold’ problem.

Yes- it takes practice (as in LOTS), but it works!

Hi David and Spencer,

You have just confirmed something that did jar my thinking. When my friend told me that the sights should be aligned at 45*, so that the moment you get the pistol up, you are ready...seemed wrong and problematic to me.

My friend has been shooting standard pistol for a few years but he seems to have been mislead by the people who gave him tips. Which is why he is still having trouble getting beyond the state level.

Thank you for all the tips, I am so enthused to begin.

Warm Regards,

Dev

Dev wrote:... When my friend told me that the sights should be aligned at 45*, so that the moment you get the pistol up, you are ready...

For most people, to have the sights aligned in the 'ready' AND when on the target, the wrist must be unlocked and have some angling down as the pistol is raised

Spencer wrote : To have the sights aligned in the 'ready' AND when on the target, the wrist must be unlocked and have some angling down as the pistol is raised

The 'alignment' between eye and sights is different for each person.
It depends on how their shoulder position. If you shoot with a 'high' or 'low' sholder position, this will change the angles of alignment at 45 deg. It is something that each shooter needs to work out, and not be taken as a statement of fact or fiction from your coach.
Personally, I am able to line up my sights at 45 deg and when in my aiming position without 'unlocking' my wrist. (But I do have a very high shoulder position and an elbow that 'rests' at more than a 180 deg angle when 'locked') I have shown this by putting two laser pointers on my arm, one on my forearm and one on my gun - the relative position of both lasers stayed the same at 45 and at the target.

Sorry to confuse things.
Bruce F

earlier post 11 Aug edited

Dev he might have just meant that you align the sights prior to lowering to 45, thus if you lock everything they should be aligned when you raise it to the shooting position.

David M wrote:To shoot a 570 you need a 195, 190, 185 or about these scores.

When I'm shooting 580s (unfortunately too uncommon lately) I'm looking for 196+, 194+, and 192+.

Serious aggressive squeeze with a 9+ hold in 150s.

Serious aggressive squeeze with a 9 hold, starting the squeeze on the way in, giving a little time for stability, for 20s.

Serious aggressive squeeze with a black hold, starting the squeeze even earlier on the way in, for 10s.

As Spencer indicates, the lift needs to be there (through eleventy-billion practice rounds), but it's subconscious - my only thought is trigger in Standard.