Rant - how big and how close should a target be !!!

[Chris_D]

Yesterday I got hit with the third ricochet in as many months. Yesterday's really hurt.

What seems to parallel the ricochets is the presence of shooters who believe you cannot have a target too big, nor too close, nor can you shoot at it fast enough. It just amazes me that people send a man size target down range 10 feet and blast away at it and miss the damn thing. It wouldn't be bad if it was only once in a while, but this is the vast majority of the shooters in this area.

I can usually tune out the guys with the 357 and 44 magnums and even the guys that enjoy pulling the trigger as fast as possible, but bullets hitting me isn't something to just brush off (well, the lead slug fell on the floor and I didn't have to brush it off).

The range I started shooting at 30 years ago was mostly a bullseye range (Fletcher Arms - Waukesha WI). I guess I got spoiled there as I don't ever recall all the nonsense I see at ranges today.

Rant over.

Chris

[Doc226]

Ouch. My range is private and the closest one can shoot anything is 21 feet. I used to shoot at a place that people could place the target near enough to get powder burns and they still had a "group" you could not cover with the palm of a hand.

[orionshooter]

It just amazes me that people send a man size target down range 10 feet and blast away at it and miss the damn thing.

Obviously, you have never seen a police gunfight.

On the serious side, if talking to managment doesnt help, it could be time to find another range or - try to time your range use when the "spray and pray" crowd arent there. My guess is that the revenue generated by the cowboy types are necessary to keep the range running.

Be careful.

[Shooterer]

Chris,
Where were you shooting? I'm from the area.
Jim

[Freepistol]

It just amazes me that people send a man size target down range 10 feet and blast away at it and miss the damn thing.

Obviously, you have never seen a police gunfight.
. . . . . .

Luckily, here in PA police gun fights are very rare. I don't think they get nearly enough range time to be effective. If an officer would ever have to control a friendly while shooting or lose the use of one hand in a gun battle, he (she) had better hope for backup or an armed citizen to come to the rescue. An officer once told me that handguns are two-handed firearms.

[Dr. Jim]

It just amazes me that people send a man size target down range 10 feet and blast away at it and miss the damn thing.

Obviously, you have never seen a police gunfight.

,,,

Doesn't even have to be a gunfight, we rent out range out to Brinks for training, and once to the RCMP (ABSOLUTELY NEVER AGAIN!!) and most cannot hit the broad side of a barn even if they were leaning against it! Hate to say it, but the best place to be in a police gunfight is directly in front of the officer. Very sad levels of competence.

Dr J

[Chris_D]

Chris,
Where were you shooting? I'm from the area.
Jim

Hi Jim,

I was shootin at GATT guns which is very close to home.

Chris

[ghillieman]

Alright, alright, lets not bash the police too much. There are many law enforcement officers that are very competant with firearms. Its the ones that cant shoot worth a damn that are contiuously mocked and brought up, and give the rest a bad name. One thing that people dont grasp is that a firearm to the police is a tool, just like the patrol car, hand cuffs, and being able to talk down a situation with out having to draw your firearm.

As far as people disreguarding safety at the range, you should get their names and report them to the management of the range.

[Doc226]

I have shot at the range with many police officers-some have been very good some not so good.

The thing we all forget or ignore is they are usually get shot at when they are shooting.

How well do you think you'll be able to shoot when lead is being shot back in your direction? [/url]

[orionshooter]

I have shot at the range with many police officers-some have been very good some not so good.

The thing we all forget or ignore is they are usually get shot at when they are shooting.

How well do you think you'll be able to shoot when lead is being shot back in your direction? [/url]

From personal experience.....being shot at definitely affects accuracy of return fire. My point is that when adrenaline is at its peak.....no matter what shooting discipline you practice......you revert to spray and pray esp when the gun battle happens with shooters standing 10-15 feet apart - a distance applicable to the vast majority of law enforcement involved shooting scenarios.

[pal177]

I was shootin at GATT guns which is very close to home.

You should join a private club. The Elgin Rifle & Pistol Club should be close enough to you. Some good bullseye shooters there. Indoor 50 ft range, access by keycard.

[GunRunner]

It has nothing to do with how close or far the target was,(unless it's a solid target ) ricochet's occur
Mostly because the range backstop is full of lead from not being cleaned or by a too high of caliber bullet that is over the capability of the back stop to stop. You should be talking to the range owners.

[randy1952]

Alright, alright, lets not bash the police too much. There are many law enforcement officers that are very competant with firearms. Its the ones that cant shoot worth a damn that are contiuously mocked and brought up, and give the rest a bad name. One thing that people dont grasp is that a firearm to the police is a tool, just like the patrol car, hand cuffs, and being able to talk down a situation with out having to draw your firearm.

As far as people disreguarding safety at the range, you should get their names and report them to the management of the range.

I would agree with everything that you mentioned, but I am afraid that many people being recruited into police departments don't view the firearms as tools. They treat the job as if it was just a regular 9 to 5 job. They don't think about the fact that they are carrying a weapon and they are accountable for every round that is being sent down range. I knew two police trainers and both of them said it was like pulling teeth to get people out on the range to practice and those that failed qualification were still allowed to carry their guns until they failed two or three times.

We had a shooting incident here several years ago in our small town where a guy walking down the street high on drugs almost naked with the exception of his shorts and waving a gun was confronted by a cop and a assistant district attorney who happened to be nearby. I can't remember if the person was firing rounds before the confrontation, but when asked to lay down the pistol he started to point the pistol at the cops and ADA. They both fired between 35 to 40 rounds at this guy from about 25 yards and hit him four times. One round went into his arm, another into his leg and shoulder. and I don't remember were the other one went, but he lived. Nobody seemed to ask where the other 30 odd rounds went in the neighborhood were this occurred.

What's worse is there are getting to be more policemen that agree with the liberals that the public shouldn't own guns. I live in what is to be considered a very conservative area and even here those attitudes are becoming more and more prevalent. When our state was debating the right to carry concealed weapons most of the police chiefs and sheriffs in the state testified against the new law saying it would be like Dodge City and the Ok Corral. A couple years after the law had been in affect at least some of them publicly admitted that they were wrong. The sheriffs especially since they are elected and that testimony they offered to legislature wasn't going to set well with their constituents.

One of the police trainers I new mentioned one officer who was so anti-gun he refused to carry a gun off duty. The officers in our area routinely are allowed to drive their patrol cars home and one day a fellow officer asked him one day about his anti-gun beliefs. He asked him what he would do if he meet an armed robber while he was in his patrol car with his family. His response was that he would do nothing in other words a dirt bags life was worth more then his families. We were astounded that he was willing to be a cop. I know this may not be the average cop, but the idea that somebody like that can be a cop and is unwilling to defend his family. What do you think he would do if he protect somebody from the public or another officer? This is a sure sign that you have people on the force that don't take the responsibility of having that weapon seriously. This would also indicate that training with the firearm is not taken that seriously by the management. The bottom line is although you may not want to use your gun unless you have to. It would be nice to know that they have training to place the bullet where it should go and not in somebody's living room.

[Rover]

My brother is a retired police shooting instructor.

The stories he tells would make you cringe, especially the ones about the women cops (yeah, I know he's a sexist pig) who didn't even have the strength to pull a revolver trigger. They were kept on because it was PC.

He personally would be a deadly adversary, but he can't say the same for many of his hopeless students.

[ghillieman]

Randy, I agree with ya buddy.

But the fact is, it will never change. As a competitor I believe that we all should be extremely proficient with firearms. But a police officer is looked at as a complete package, not just firearm proficiency. Thats why they can fail pistol qual but be good at everything else and still have a job. The last thing you want is a cop that their only tool is a gun. Those are the ones that usually show up on the news. I have found that your ability to keep a cool head and defuse the situation works a lot better, and thats about 95% of the time. Rarely is your only option to draw your firearm, but it happens.

I was signing up a retired police chief at the department range a few years ago, and we got to talking. It started with me explaining that at the indoor range, full auto guns were not allowed. He scoffed and said "well, nobody has any machine guns out here." I told him that I personally knew of 3 people who had full auto's in our community. After debating the legalities of full auto's he stated that he was a member of the IACP, The International Association of Chiefs of Police, and that if he had his way the only place people could have guns were in their home. No CHL, no right to carry, nothing. Needless to say I was shocked, and held back calling him a socialist

Fact is, not being able to drill out the center of your target does not make you a bad cop.

[ghillieman]

Rover, I just read your post.

If you get a change to go and watch, do so. It's downright funny, hard to keep from laughing sometimes. And how the hell can you miss from 7 yards, hahahaha.

Geez, its all about the basics.

[Freepistol]

Randy, I agree with ya buddy.

But the fact is, it will never change. As a competitor I believe that we all should be extremely proficient with firearms. But a police officer is looked at as a complete package, not just firearm proficiency. Thats why they can fail pistol qual but be good at everything else and still have a job. The last thing you want is a cop that their only tool is a gun. Those are the ones that usually show up on the news. I have found that your ability to keep a cool head and defuse the situation works a lot better, and thats about 95% of the time. Rarely is your only option to draw your firearm, but it happens. . . . . .

Based on some of the video I've seen of the capture after a chase, cool heads on the police force are not always present. Once a suspect surrenders there is nothing an officer can do to get even or let off steam. Locally officers are told to be extremely careful because they are always on video.