The complexity of hold, straight dope.

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:33 pm

In response to a few PM's. I speak in plane language and as honestly as I can with the straight dope.

This is intended to help all levels, I don't discriminate based on your goals.

As I see it "Hold" is a lot more complex than most of us ever thought. I believe hold or "steadiness" is intertwined with four areas, or hold is the result of these four factors. I will take them on one at a time, they are all equally important.

Pistol Weight: Most shooters when they start out make pistol selection based on many factor, but usually not weight. This can be a mistake. For instance if pistol is too heavy it will cause early fatigue of the arm while on point, too light and the pistol will never settle to an aiming area.

How do you chose. 25 years ago there was very little choice on a very small market for air pistols. You had the FWB Model 2 or the Walther CP 2
(I will talk about pneumatics later on)

Both manufactures offered either full size or junior sized pistols. Today there are at least six top shelf air pistols on the market in a number of different configurations from each manufacturer. Most makers also offer add on weights.

First to find a starting off point for pistol weight, be honest with yourself. If you are a 15 year old boy starting out, buy a junior pistol. If you are 65 years old and getting tired, buy a smaller sized pistol. There is no dishonor in using a shorter length and lighter weight pistol. If the smaller sized pistol is too light and the full sized too heavy- use the short cylinder on a full sized pistol. How do I know what weight to get?

Good question. Try this, with the pistol unloaded hold it by the cylinder and barrel end and point the grip end toward a wall. You should be able to hold it reasonably steady for 8-10 seconds. It's not an exact science, but the weight is the same, just more nose heavy. This simulates pure weight/balance without grip support.

As you develop a better hold and physical strength you can add weight if desired. Too light a pistol will tend to flutter and never settle.

For fine tuning of weight and balance try using lead solder wire wrapped around the barrel or self stick wheel weights from the auto supply. This is good since you can add/subtract weight as needed.

As for the short cylinders and long barrels, I shot this set up for a few years and found it to work well before alloy frames and cylinders came along.

A note on pneumatic air pistols. I don't advocate them for a few reasons. First they require too much body and grip movement to cock as well as energy. With the flip of one finger you can cock a PCP air pistol and not lose hand position on the grip as well as body position.

So picking the right weight pistol will help hold. Better hold will help performance.

Next segment: Grip(hand pressure)

Have fun. PM's welcome if you are shy.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:43 pm

Nicely done! Why you wait so long (six years) hiding from us that you know something. And language now is more readable and pleasant. :)

I don't discriminate based on your goals.

Just one correction. Can you change “

discriminate based on your goals”

Qualifying will be more politically correct. We use discriminate for different reasons.

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:16 am

A PM asked if it was legal to use a shorter gun in competition- yes. There is a weight restriction on air pistols though, I'll get that number for you later.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:43 am

Greg Derr wrote:There is a weight restriction on air pistols though, I'll get that number for you later.

Maximum weight under ISSF rules is 1500g

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:51 am

David: thank you for the info.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:57 am

Dear Greg Derr.
Please take to your consideration about appropriate use of word Discriminate. This word has certain attributes related to the current Federal Law: You can’t discriminate: Federally Protected Categories: Race, Ethnicity, Color, Disability, Familial Status, Gender, National Origin, Religion.
Please do not use words if you do not understand complete meaning of it. You may know how to spell it and it may sounds smart, but if you do not understand complete meaning of it you may misdirect public attention in wrong way and destroy value of your posts and hard earned credentials.

So your expression about discrimination on goals sounds silly or funny or uneducated…. You can choose yourself.

Please do not force me to read rest of it...

peterz · Post by **peterz** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:43 am

...about appropriate use of word Discriminate. This word has certain attributes related to the current Federal Law: You can’t discriminate: Federally Protected Categories: Race, Ethnicity, Color, Disability, Familial Status, Gender, National Origin, Religion.

Russ is not a native speaker of English, and his comprehension skills are obviously lacking -- that's OK; my skills are lacking in the foreign languages I speak. But he should not pontificate about the varying meanings of the word "discriminate" in English. Greg Derr's usage was fine in context.

I should note that Russ seems to "discriminate", based on his judgment of your agreement with his philosophy, your willingness to take his views of shooting technique as correct, and probably your ability to pay for his coaching.

Could we end this squirting contest, which has now spread to two threads, please?

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:03 pm

"to take his views of shooting technique as correct, and probably your ability to pay for his coaching"

"technique as correct"

No one yet claimed correct technique untill 600 scored. Not achieved yet.

"pay for his coaching"

I promised do not advertise here. Please do not touch this point. I’m here to help to take care about "grassroots".

Yes I will qualify and provide necessary help here (FREE of Charge)
But I will to choose by my own criteria only, not by amount of wealth.

Can we have different expertise for this sentence?

I don't discriminate based on your goals.

Because my English not perfect, I see some imperfections. Since we are not discussing poetry or English grammar I will be fine for a while. I’m kind of worry of peterz’s expertise; sorry do not take it personally.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:33 pm

Russ wrote:
I don't discriminate based on your goals.
Just one correction. Can you change “
discriminate based on your goals”
Qualifying will be more politically correct. We use discriminate for different reasons.

Greg's use of "discriminate" is, IMHO, perfectly correct and acceptable. Where words have more than one meaning then common sense should dictate which one is meant.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:50 pm

OK, as a business owner and licensed MI State real estate agent I should comply with US Federal Law. This not appropriate usage of this word makes me Red Flagged his total post. Probably it is only me? If it is OK for others I have no problem with that.

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:12 pm

As an author and professional journalist, I have a good grasp of the English language and it's use , thank you.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:39 pm

Greg Derr wrote:As an author and professional journalist, I have a good grasp of the English language and it's use , thank you.

So you did it for the reason to misdirect public attention. Thank you.
You are doing this professionally. I see you guys good with subliminal language!
At least you are professional. Nice to meet you! :)))

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:54 pm

Russ wrote:
Greg Derr wrote:As an author and professional journalist, I have a good grasp of the English language and it's use , thank you.
So you did it for the reason to misdirect public attention. Thank you.

Russ, you are obviously trying to pick an argument for some reason.

Here in England one of the standard reference books is the Oxford English Dictionary. It comes in several versions, the one I have giving the FIRST definition of the word "discriminate" as "make or see a distinction; differentiate".

I am not an expert on American dictionaries but would be surprised if the major ones did not give a similar definition.

bwwaaaa · Post by **bwwaaaa** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:56 pm

He hasn't even reached part two and this thread has already devolved into a discussion of the finer parts of the english language. What's the point? Just let it go.

Keep up the good work Greg.

(If I were a betting man, I would say that Russ will quote just the "What's the point?" part of my post, and his reply will start with "I'll give you a hint.")

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:17 pm

Greg Derr wrote:As an author and professional journalist, I have a good grasp of the English language and it's use, thank you.

No, you probably HAVEN'T, as your above quoted sentence proves.
Hoist.
Petard.
Own.
:-D

Post by **pilkguns** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:23 pm

Russ

I have been out of the loop the last few days, but this thread seems entirely unnecessary. I don't mean to dismiss your English skills, but I agree with both American and British posters that Greg's posting was an appropriate usage. And I do know Greg has some impressive journalism credentials. And yes, shot for the US Team some back in the day too, and still builds 45s for folks in his off hours, so he has some "shooting credentials" as well.