TargetTalk

How high from the floor shold it be? 55" to the horizontal center line between second and third row?

Lenny wrote:How high from the floor shold it be? 55" to the horizontal center line between second and third row?

Read the rule book for the particular shooting organization. I know it is not the most exciting thing you can read, but after officiating for 20 years it can be a life saver. You need to become familiar with the rules if you are going to participating in these events. I have been to many JO and other matches where coaches and shooters don't become familiar with the rules and commit grieves errors that can cost participants points and worse get DNS from the match all because they spent all their time learning how to shot, but zero effort into the rules. Believe me it will help you in the long run if you at least become familiar with the rules. I found that the range officials do make mistakes and if you are familiar with the rules it may save you. For example, I have been to matches where they for years had been using the incorrect times for position shooting mostly because they were using an old program written years ago and nobody bothered to keep up on the rules. The rules are free to download and if you want to find something quickly you can do a word search on the document. In this instance the rule in the NRA rule book for target height in the Precision Airgun Rule Book for target height is under rule 6.2.1 Shooting Range, Specific. However, if your shooting a USAS or CMP 3P Air rifle match you will want need to check the CMP Rule Book, which is also available for free.

Lenny,

Yes, 55" from the floor (or level of the floor at the firing line) to the horizontal line running through the center of the target is correct.

This is the best approximation for the 12 bull target to the 1.4m target height specified by ISSF and USAS for the single bull target. (If you do the math carefully 55" is actually 3mm shy of 1.4m)

'Dude

Thanks, Dude.

Rule 6.2.1 doesn't answer my question. Rule books are so overrated.

NRA rule 6.2.1(b) allows the target to be adjusted to the height of the shooter.

(b) 10 Meters/33 Feet - The shooting range may be equipped with target carriers. Simpler ranges may also
be built with fixed targets, providing safety is observed in every respect. The ranges may be constructed
either in the open air or indoors. Target height may be adjustable to take into account different shooter
sizes (ISSF) height is 1.4 m (~55 ⅛ inches) plus or minus .05 m (~2 inches).

Pat McCoy wrote:NRA rule 6.2.1(b) allows the target to be adjusted to the height of the shooter.

(b) 10 Meters/33 Feet - The shooting range may be equipped with target carriers. Simpler ranges may also
be built with fixed targets, providing safety is observed in every respect. The ranges may be constructed
either in the open air or indoors. Target height may be adjustable to take into account different shooter
sizes (ISSF) height is 1.4 m (~55 ⅛ inches) plus or minus .05 m (~2 inches).

Now this is somebody that nows how to read. Rule books are what govern the matches and all though some of the rules can have some different meaning to different people most are quite plan. If the person who thinks rule books are overrated then where did they think rest of us where going to get the answer?

randy1952,

Seldom do I "call people out" on these forums but today I have to make an exception.

Your admonition to

Read the rule book for the particular shooting organization.

Then a long statement about how important it is to be familar with the rules really comes across very poorly.

I recall instances when I was a junior an had questions about the rules and one of the club fathers in particular would say "Well what does the rulebook say?" You would then respond with what you thought was the proper interpretation only to be berated (publicly) with a response starting out "Well you have that wrong! So read it and try again." As time wore on I also came to realize how often this self appointed "expert" was not just wrong but absolutely wrong.

I appears to me that Lenny had read the rules but was still confused as to exact implementation. If you have worked with rifle JOs then you should be familiar with the AR-5/10 target and how the center point is really just floating in space. ISSF rules do not address this target at all, USAS rules only make reference to the center of the center bulleye and the NRA rules
do not specify a reference point, only distance from datum.

In almost 30 years of shooting I have seen this question come up repeatedly, Lenny is not the first only the most recent to ask, so clearly this is a little hard to define in print in rulebook prose.

This is just my two cents, but to amplify the point that rulebooks are good but not the perfect unerring source you set them out to be: Consider a 60 shot air rifle match being fired under USAS rules. Due to the range I must break after each 20 shots to set fresh targets (the AR-5/10 from this discussion in fact.) Now please look at USAS Rule 7.6 and USAS Rule 6.11.2.3.1B and tell me how much time I should get for each 20 shot stage? Not "about" how much time, I mean exactly how much time.

'Dude

Dude,

JOs and USAS rules have nothing to do with this discussion as the subject was "NRA 12 bull Air Rifle Target Height".

NRA rule is specific (under paragraph b) to allow height to be adjustable for shooters height.

This discussion is about to go completely academic but this is more interesting than other stuff on my desk so...

In the original post Lenny did not specify NRA or USAS rules only the target. Regardless of ISSF, USAS or NRA all three bodies specify 1.4 meters from the floor to the center of the bull. ISSF does not recognize a multiple bull target however both USAS and NRA do.

Now, I am sure USAS would love to have all their sanctioned matches fired on single bull targets but appreciate that in the US such a restriction would eliminate many possible venues from holding air rifle tournaments. Hence USAS explicitly allows a multiple bull air rifle target as described under 6.3.2.3A. Without saying so this rule works out to being the NRA Official AR-5/10 target.

Going back to the lead in, both organizations state 1.4 meters from floor to target center. They also both allow for 0.05 meters vertical tolerance. As the NRA rules point out this works out to being about 2 inches (1.969" to be anal about it.) Where I take issue with the NRA rules is the statement that "Target height may be adjustable to take into account different shooter sizes" Considering I have worked with and shot against shooters ranging from just over 4 ft to just over 6 ft those 2 inches of tolerance are exactly that, tolerance, not really an adjustment for shooter size as the writer for NRA rule 6.2.1(b) would like us to believe.

Anyhow, this is largely academic as Lenny did get his answer, I guess.

Cheers,

'Dude

Dude,

You might want to check the "subject" line of the original post.

NRA rules do NOT specify 1.4M, that is (as stated in the NRA rule itself) an ISSF rule. I think the NRA rule book is missing a period at the end of the sentence stating target heights are adjustable for shooters.

Also, the +/- .05M tolerance is a "range" tolerance in USAS rules, and all targets on the same range must be hubg at the same height (1.4M +/- .05M).

I've had sub-four foot juniors hang air rifle targets for Jr Sectionals substantially below 1.4M, with no problems.

Pat,

Again, going totally academic:

When you look at the original subject line and see NRA you interpret it as the governing body for the competition. I interpret it as which body called it an official target. Pretty much all of the air rifle targets printed in the US will have the seal on the bottom that says "NRA Official". When the original post referred to NRA 12-Bull Air Rifle Target I take NRA to refer to the target stamp not to which rulebook.

Having all three rules on the screen in front of me there is an interesting difference. ISSF and USAS (6.3.9) both use the word "MUST" in the language for setting the target height with the additional +/- 0.05m tolerance and restriction that all in a group must be within 1cm (0.01m). USAS rule 6.3.9A then relieves the 1cm restriction.

Under NRA rules 6.2.1(b), you are very correct, the way it is written 1.4m is something of a suggestion but there is no real obligation to have the target at any specific height. (Yeah I think you are right, someone missed a period.)

I shoot primarily USAS so tend to default to their rules even if local rules are less stringent. I aways set my AR targets at 1.4m as a matter of course. Just a training thing.

'Dude

Dude,

You are right, I read the subject line as NRA rules. Seems the posts usually refer to USAS or ISSF if that is what is being questioned.

Do your short juniors a favor in future NRA matches, and let them hang the target at their own height.

Glad you are working with kids. We need more folks involved.

Pat,

I think we all default to the rulebook with which we are most familiar. It does seem most members on this forum think in ISSF / USAS. There are a number on here outside of the US that seem to automatically work in ISSF.

I will say the NRA interpretation on this makes more sense with regard to the younger shooters. Having a short statured shooter shooting at a bull that is higher than they are makes a difficult position (standing) even more so. In the end of course we have to train to the rules we are competing under.

While I have coached in the past I have not done so on any formal level for some time now. (long story there) but thanks for the nod on my past efforts.

'Dude