TargetTalk

Well I knew this day would come> I see people having problems with those european guns and it will continue' Something about heat treatment they haven't learned yet,. We did back in the 20-40's with our military { See Hatcher's Notebook } some great reading, Some of the best guns in the world made right here in the U S though the 40's, 70's and still shooting those guns today without problems,.just a little TLC ,. Oh well I sure this will open a can of worms!! / I will be enjoying my American made guns in the matches again this year,.

This should be good! All my rimfire pistols are European, but all my center fire are US made except my RIA .38 Super.

That's Cool ! Where did you find that picture? Man

What exactly are you talking about? Would it be the Hammerlis, Walthers and Pardinis that have hundreds of thousands of rounds through them? You are giggling about opening a can of worms, but I only detect an empty tin?

Well, the US hasn't made a decent firearm since 1911, whats that 100 years?

At least half the firearms, and all the pistols, in current US military service are European.

The only real US target pistol, the M41, is pretty weak, the 1911 needs hours of gunsmithing to be any use, Smith and Wessons the same.

All other 'USA is awsm' talk is blowhardery.

:)

hill987 wrote:That's Cool ! Where did you find that picture? Man

Trapping forum

I have been thinking about purchasing a European target pistol. Which one are you referring to so I can make sure and avoid it?

BEA wrote:I have been thinking about purchasing a European target pistol. Which one are you referring to so I can make sure and avoid it?

I think he's just trying to stir the pot a bit. For every story of a problem with a Euro-gun you can find an anectode about a problem with a US-made gun.

Actually, I would like to know which pistol(s) he is referring to. He must have a model he is having trouble with, or know someone who is. What good does it do to make this statment without being specific so others know what he is talking about?

Some pistols had frames that cracked. I did a quick search for "cracked frames" and came up with several posts. Additionally, search for the pistol you want to buy and you'll find the history of it.
Most European guns exhibit excellent workmanship as well as accuracy.

my old pardini (1997) got a crack in the frame.. i use a morini cm22m alu now.. a great gun.

Never forget that match pistols are made to use match standard velocity ammunition.

Some are stronger than others but you can break almost all of them by using high velocity/too strong ammunitions.

The frame cracking problems happened much more often with center fire match pistols with shooters using factory .32SWLWC.

JamesH wrote:Well, the US hasn't made a decent firearm since 1911, whats that 100 years?

At least half the firearms, and all the pistols, in current US military service are European.

The only real US target pistol, the M41, is pretty weak, the 1911 needs hours of gunsmithing to be any use, Smith and Wessons the same.

All other 'USA is awsm' talk is blowhardery.

:)

Yes, all US pistols are crap. Can you recommend a nice Aussie pistol? Please, I really want to know!

Rgds,
Slo cat

There is not anywhere a pistol close to the 1911 45ACP. That's why it rules the line. In this part of the country, so does the High Standard Victor and the Smith and Wesson 41. The only other thing that would be next, would be the Marvel, as far as conventional bullseye goes. Most all the euro guns I have seen or held, look and feel for the most part junkie. Plastic parts and thin metal that's subject to breaking. Not seen anything that I would waste good money on. That's my assessment ,.,

The 1911 "rules the line" because the rules of the game favor it. Think about it:
>A 2700 match has a dedicated .45 stage.
>By far the most numerous platform shooting .45 is the 1911.
>Until Sams and a couple of others learned how to accurize the M9, if you ever dreamed of getting Distinguished it had to be with a 1911.
>There are literally millions of 1911s in circulation. The 1911 is simple to work on. There are thousands of "pistolsmiths" who know how to work on it (forget that all but a few dozen are only parts changers). There is a galaxy of stuff out there to be bolted on - try to find triggers, sears, a range of sights, match barrels etc. for a SIG 220 for instance.
>There's lots more, but too little time.

The fact is that the 1911 "rules the line" because of sheer numbers and because there is a bigger-than-cottage industry dedicated to making it into a competition gun, WHICH IT ISN'T AS MANUFACTURED.

The Hi Standards and Model 41 are very capable pistols which have survived in competition because they allow the shooter to easily transition to the 1911 in the CF and .45 stages (note how the easier to shoot slant grip Hi Standards have virtually disappeared from the line). Marvel conversion units are proliferating at matches. They make the switch to the 1911 even easier, and you know this is coming at the expense of the H-S's and M41's.

The track at Monza was built to favor Ferrari race cars; NRA bullseye competition is designed to favor the 1911. Simple, isn't it?

Hi

Well, yes the 1911 rules the line, but think about it.

1. The 1911 was first built in 1911, it's older than the other steel frame semi-automatics which is a huge advantage. Gunsmiths have had 100 years to work on them...

2. The 1911 is a good (not necessarily great, or optimal) platform from which to build an accurate .45 ACP, Centerfire, and Smallbore gun.

3. The 1911 has a barrel bushing which allows a tight fit and lockup as compared to many other semi-automatics.

4. Shooting a semi-automatic pistol instead of a revolver allows the slide to take up some of the recoil.

There are other steel semi-automatics, but there is no great advantage to using them, or trying to accurize them at this date. The other semi-automatic, the Glock, has a plastic frame which isn't going to take the gunsmithing necessary to accurize it.

Mike
Wichita KS

Well, *clears throat*, Mr...Hill987 you bring up a good point.

These cheaply made, new fangaled European guns you speak of are a tad bit touchy. After all they are made to compete in the Olympics and generally require expensive ammunition that most shooters here in America don't want to spend money on. What do the Olympic medalists know about shooting anyways, they arent even using a Marvel conversion.

Now that isnt to say that a Buckmark or a Mk 2 or 3 isnt competitive in bullseye. After a trigger job and maybe a new barrel you should be able to turn in some respectable scores, I did it.

But, it wasn't until I stumbled upon a used Pardini SP that my scores really climbed. My personal best is an 881-45X, with that cheaply made foreign non 1911 conversion hunka junk.

Whheeewww, the winds of change are blowing, whheewwww......

Well I was at the sectional yerterday and was staged for the second relay when a good friend and master shooter comes off the line with guest what,> A broken euro gun It was a Walther It had broken the extractor,. He did get to finish the match, luckly He had a high stanard Victor for has back up

hill987 wrote:Well I was at the sectional yerterday and was staged for the second relay when a good friend and master shooter comes off the line with guest what,> A broken euro gun It was a Walther It had broken the extractor,. He did get to finish the match, luckly He had a high stanard Victor for has back up

So you are telling us that a Master class shooter who owns an American made High Standard still prefers to shoot a "fragile" European pistol as his primary gun?