TargetTalk

Could anybody give me any specifics on 22 pistol at 4h Nationals?

What type of equipment were the successful youth shooting?

Did they use different set ups for for timed stuff versus the chickens.....Rams?

From what I have heard, things change (Rules), possibly yearly, and many show up ill prepared??

Any advice would be welcomed!

Eric

Will there actually be 4H Nationals this year? After the mess Texas 4H caused last year, I didn't think anyone would attend another Match there. I could be wrong, we'll see...

We recieved our state qualifier letters this week.......so Wisconsin is under the assumption they will take place.

I'm helping to plan the Alabama state qualifier, but, no one here knows if there will be a nationals or not. And, I don't think anyone here cares.

I've heard is that the Nationals will be held in San Antonio, not Kerrville.

National committee folks were very concerned with the following items and have discussed with Texas 4-H folks:
1) Safety .... very unsafe ranges in Kerrville, shooting over top of other events, spent bullets landing near buildings, etc
2) Ranges that were promised to be ready were nowhere near capable ... Kerrville pulled this on CMP and USAS a few years ago, and 4-H marched blindly into it again
3) Non 4-H RO's and their unprofessional conduct and comments around and to the kids
4) WTH happened with the AR 3-P prone event and why they only used one target, and forced the CMP to pull the sanctioning for that event. Many shooters were denied EIC points.

Basically Texas 4-H "Sold National a bill of goods" and kinda got away with it.
Supposed to be better this year, but I feel that lots of the entry fees should have been refunded.

No way will I take a team to TX this year and chance it happening to my shooters. National pretty much has swept this under the rug and has not really addressed the many questions, letters and emails that have been sent to them. I'm very disappointed to say the very least

Having competed in the nationals last year, i can attest to what jhmartin is saying.
1) I had no idea that bullets were landing near the building, but the outdoor ranges were horrible. The ranges were laden with large rocks where the kids were shooting and the i don't believe that the backstops were tall enough (i shot air rifle so i didn't shoot at those ranges)
2) The indoor ranges were HORRIBLE to give a complement. The air rifle range was supposed to have air conditioning, but they didn't put it in. Plus the floors were covered in dirt and dust so a stable standing position was impossible. Also, Because they didn't have air conditioners, they tried to combat the 95+ degree heat inside the building with INDUSTRIAL fans pointed as a crosswind towards the targets.
3) The range officials were pretty bad, they would constantly all be huddled in a corner talking with each other while the shooting was going on. They also let the kids go back and talk with there coaches even if they were not finished shooting. I am not sure if this last one was legit, but my coach thought it was illegal.
4) I was also not aware of this, we shot all four targets. What do you mean?

Just thought i would share my 2 cents.

silentfury214 wrote: 3) The range officials were pretty bad, they would constantly all be huddled in a corner talking with each other while the shooting was going on. They also let the kids go back and talk with there coaches even if they were not finished shooting. I am not sure if this last one was legit, but my coach thought it was illegal.
4) I was also not aware of this, we shot all four targets. What do you mean?

#3 -- This is allowed if an RO gives permission, even if you are not finished shooting. All you need to do is ask permission from the RO to go see your coach and the RO will 1) check to make sure your rifle/pistol is safed, and 2) give you permission.

#4 -- the 3-P event shoots 6 targets, 2 in prone, 2 in standing and 2 in kneeling. One (I've heard the first) prone target was removed from the scoring. Why? .... nobunny has been told.

They did not ask and even the coaches told them to come back without asking permission.

Joel, nitpicking of rules but have seen ROs refuse to give permission for competitor to leave line.

If a competitor wants to speak with coach he does not have to get RO permission; he only has to notify the RO & of course make gun safe, ground & insert CBI.

However, if coach wants to speak with the competitor he must get permission from the RO who will then notify the competitor.

Rules for the 4-H competition from National Standard 3-P AR Rules 5.2 & are same for national & international competitions.

Rule Picker wrote:Joel, nitpicking of rules but have seen ROs refuse to give permission for competitor to leave line.

I myself have refused permission ... USAS & ISSF rules:

6.2.2.5 Before the shooter leaves the firing point, the shooter must ascertain and the Range Officer must verify that the action is open and there is no cartridge or pellet in the chamber or magazine. If the shooter boxes his gun or removes it from the firing point without having it checked by the Range Officer, he may be disqualified.

6.10.5.2 If a shooter wishes to speak with anyone else, the shooter must unload his gun and leave it in a safe condition on the firing line (on the firing line bench if possible). In the case of bolt action guns, the bolt must be both open and back. A shooter may leave the firing line only after notifying a Range Officer and without disturbing other shooters.

Once the gun is verified safe, and if there is sufficient time remaining I'll allow a shooter to leave the line. (If they come off the line with their knees together, I may even hold the door for them)

In the case of CMP rules and NRA rules, especially with junior shooters,it would stand well with the RO's if the shooter got into this habit. They risk a warning, deduction of points, or even disqualification if they leave a gun on the line in an unsafe condition and step away from it.

General Rule #1 - Be Safe
General Rule #2 - Be Smart

I did not think I would open a can of worms......This years location is in fact San Antonio. I had heard about the weather problems related to the hurricane, but not on the management and grounds side. Hopefully the National Shooting Sports Complex will be a better suited location.

Does anybody have any comments of equipment?

Chequamegon wrote:I did not think I would open a can of worms......
Does anybody have any comments of equipment?

The fiasco last year did indeed get quite a few people riled up ... there was no excuse for it as they (TX) tried to post new rules in February and got hammered by National to not make up their own rules. Still a VERY sore subject.

In 2005 one of our Valencia county shooters took 2nd overall with a Ruger Mk-III in all three events. I would think a Mk-II bull bbl would be good too. I'd prefer a long sightline, especially if you were to use this unscoped in the silhouette event.
My Father just purchased a 22/45 MK-III with the longer bbl and raves over it ... he loves the thing and says it very accurate.

jhmartin wrote:
The fiasco last year did indeed get quite a few people riled up ... there was no excuse for it as they (TX) tried to post new rules in February and got hammered by National to not make up their own rules. Still a VERY sore subject.

The 4H National committee has no room to talk when it comes to making up the rules at the last minute. They have done it themselves and then curse those who question their actions.

They got what they deserved last year in TX just too bad kids had to suffer. It was just dumb luck no one got hurt.

Just so i didn't start yet another new topic, i was wondering if you could go back to nationals in the same discipline even if you were to go back as an individual instead of a team?

silentfury214

you can only go once per discipline as a member of a team or individual. Because they give individual awards and they don't want the same person winning 2+yrs.

Walther101

Thanks, i will have to tell my instructors that.

Can you go as a team and win awards in both?.......(individual also)

I would assume so, but the questions above and the past rule changes make me wonder.

Each day there is an individual and team award for the event
There is also overall team/individual awards per disciplines
Also ... a team overall across all the disciplines

Best to look at the General Rules as well as the Event Synopsis ... they are not posted for 2011 (best guess, by end of Feb for the first version) (not that there is any real guarantee they will be followed, but hey, it's a start....)

If you want to see a previous year's, PM me with your email address and I'll zing them to you

Was not there for the Nationals
but I was there the week after for our State Games in San Antonio.
and talked to several of the people that were there and it all fell
on the range owner he was not up front to my understanding and
was in over his head.
This Year it will be at a top notch range you will not be disappointed.

supercomp9

Info for the 2011 national event is now on the National 4H web